TOYAH ON
MY TIME CAPSULE
WITH MICHAEL FENTON STEVENS
24.1.2022

MICHAEL: I'm Michael Fenton Stevens, and this is the podcast where we talk about the fascinating subject of sandpaper grades. Well, it might as well be because in each episode I talk to a different guests about the five things from their life that they'd like to preserve in a time capsule

Four things they love and one thing they wish they could forget. Something from their past that they wish they could bury in the ground and never have to think about again. Some are bound to be sandpaper grades one day ...

Perhaps my guest in this episode, the pop star, musician, actor, TV presenter, writer, and famous woodworker - no, actually, that's just about the only thing that Toyah Willcox hasn't done. Yes, my special guest is the amazing Toyah, one of the very few people where one name is enough. Paraphrasing her career or careers Toyah has had eight Top 40 singles, she's released over 20 albums, written two books, appeared in over 40 stage plays, acted in 10 feature films and numerous television shows

Toyah is married to the musician and rock legend Robert Fripp, founder and guitarist of the prog rock group King Crimson. And as a musician and singer herself Toyah has toured 33 times since 1979. Her films include “Jubilee”, “Quadrophenia”, and Derek Jarman's “The Tempest” and she's appeared on TV in “Shoestring”, “Minder”, “Tales Of The Unexpected”, “French and Saunders”, “Kavanagh QC”, “Secret Diary Of A Call Girl”, “Casualty”, and as the narrator of the “Teletubbies” and my personal favourite “Brum”

She's also had the misfortune of working with me in a stage production of “Amadeus”, which we talk a bit about in this recording. So let's hear what from all this the extraordinary Toyah Willcox chooses to put in her time capsule

Toyah, how fantastic to have you on “My Time Capsule”. I can't believe it, it's so lovely to see you. After all these years!

TOYAH: How many years is it?

MICHAEL: Well, it must have been -

TOYAH: It was “Amadeus”, wasn't it?

MICHAEL: It was “Amadeus”. That's right. We did a tour of “Amadeus”. 1990 -

TOYAH: Great tour!

MICHAEL: 31 years ago -

TOYAH: 31 years ago. Well, it's all a blur for me because in the last 20 years my music career came back with a vengeance. And I haven't looked back and I've lost all those kinds of memories. I mean, I can remember Peter Shaffer was involved. Tim Pigott-Smith, Richard McCabe, you. I was also doing a daytime tour of prisons of Janis Joplin (Toyah at the prison in Aberdeen in 1991, below) The really exhausting tour!

MICHAEL: It was exhausting. I remember you going off to prisons. At the same time I was going off with an actor called Max Gold. You may remember?

TOYAH: Oh, I love Max Gold! You went with Helen Baxendale as well?

MICHAEL: Yeah, yeah, the three of us. So we had the really nice job of going around schools. While you would go to prisons and come back and say “Oh, my God, it was a bit weird” ...

TOYAH: I'd rather gone to the prisons. The thing about going into the prisons, Michael, is they needed entertaining and they were utterly engrossed. And the thing that disturbed me was I was able to leave, and I was performing to what looked like completely normal human beings you'd bump into in a shop, but they weren't allowed to leave and I found that grossly disturbing

MICHAEL: I've been to prisons before I was an actor. I worked as a solicitor's clerk

TOYAH: You look like one now!

MICHAEL: I look more like a judge (they both laugh) I went to a number of prisons, and they were horrible. Horrible. I think everybody should have a visit to a prison. Yeah, and just smell it

TOYAH: Yes. Well, what I experienced, because I was going in with about 20 press people to every prison, was some of the prisoners would hand me notes and I'd open up the note and they'd say "they've only made it like this for you". They cleaned it, they painted, they made it look pristine and clinical. And I was getting these notes saying "this has only happened because of you". And then you know, you really think about what is going on and prison is prison

MICHAEL: Because in that time, people would have been slopping out of a bucket in the corner of the cell. So it was just awful

TOYAH: I'm glad I did it because it was a great leveller. And, you know, I was a huge rock star. And suddenly I was made to experience what life is like for someone who is so desperate they steal a car, they steal food, they steal someone's stereo. That everyone had a story and everyone had a reason. It was such an eye opener. What an experience!

MICHAEL: Astonishing, but we are going to talk about things like that. You're going to pick five things from your life. Four things that you treasure, and one thing that you'd like to get rid of. You've made notes. Oh, how brilliant!

TOYAH: Not only have I made notes - I've done lists! (Michael laughs) Do people have a problem picking these things?

MICHAEL: Only sometimes narrowing it down

TOYAH: Well, my passion list is very selfish. So shall I start?

MICHAEL: Yeah, go

TOYAH: OK. My passion is stones. I absolutely love stones. I collect rare gems - can't afford diamonds but rare gems I can do. And I collect very rare crystals. So I'm holding up a 37 carat topaz (on Toyah's left hand, above)

MICHAEL: Oh, it's beautiful

TOYAH: It's absolutely beautiful and I collect stones like that. And I bought the stone, had it made into a ring and I don't go anywhere without it. This ring has survived so much. It's been lost at petrol stations. It's been lost in public loos. It's been dropped from great height and I have always worn a blue stone and I feel naked without a blue stone on me

Now people might say "oh, that sounds really frivolous. What does it mean? People are starving around the world." For me, this is a stone that has been created out of the creation of the world, from the impact of volcanoes, from mountains forming from earthquakes. It's been there long before I was conceived

And for me, it's what I call a universal connection. You know, it makes me realise that I have a very precious moment in time within the existence of the universe. It is not even a speck of dust in the existence of the universe. And I wear this ring just to remind me not to waste time

MICHAEL: Ah! Very good. Very good. And you don't, do you?

TOYAH: I try not to

MICHAEL: I always thought that that was the case. When we did this play together you to me had been this enormous rock star. So suddenly, I became aware of the fact that you acted and I hadn't really noticed it. I suppose, you know, “Quadrophenia” and things like that you would have noticed, that you would have thought you were in there because of your pop connection. But actually, there you were - this incredibly dedicated actress with an amazing CV already behind you

TOYAH: I started at the National Theatre when I was 18

MICHAEL: It's incredible

TOYAH: Yeah! But I think I was a bit just too rebellious for the system. I did Christopher Hampton’s adaptation of “Tales From The Vienna Woods” with a phenomenal cast. Kate Nelligan got me in the cast. She saw me on a TV play on BBC2 called “Glitter”, and she was watching while having supper with the director Maximilian Schell, great German movie star

And they said "right, we're going to cast her as Emma and “Tales From The Vienna Woods”" and I never looked back. So I had already, before I had a hit single, done the National Theatre, the ICA, worked with Stephen Poliakoff, Danny Boyd on “Sugar and Spice” (flyer, below), he was the assistant director on Nigel Williams’ “Sugar And Spice” at the Royal Court Theatre. I’d already been in the royalty of acting before “It’s A Mystery” was a hit

MICHAEL: That's the thing I remember about it. And then also, it was your style of acting that I really liked. From my memory of this thing one of the things that slightly wound up Tim Pigott-Smith was that you never repeated. You hardly ever repeated anything. You would be fresh every night

TOYAH: I know and I now realise how destructive that can be to someone like Tim Pigott-Smith, because my whole philosophy was the audience deserved a new approach. And this is how I feel about every show I do. And believe me, I've been on stage with A-listers in America, where they have done exactly the same rock performance every night, down to the same head moves and the same solos. And I thought the audience deserves you present in the room

So when I get onstage, not as much now with an acting play as I do with music, the audience deserves to be present in the room in that moment and that moment is sacred, and it's with them forever

But I realised with Tim Pigott-Smith - I had quite large scenes with him as “Constanze” - that my doing it differently every night, with him playing such a huge role as “Salieri” ... I was not helping him. He would have words with me about reining it back and becoming what we were in rehearsals and I did rein it back

But I think I was a handful for many, many people when I was much younger. I totally totally sympathise with Tim Pigott-Smith, dreading being on stage with me. Richard McCabe was equally dangerous and when we had a couple scenes ... I mean, my God did the fur fly!

MICHAEL: Yes, I remember. You probably forget that I actually understudied Richard in that production and I watched you closely every night and in fact Helen Baxendale understudied you

TOYAH: Yes, she did. I remember one scene where we were getting violent with each other because “Constanze” goes mad, and I was wearing a pregnancy bump. And we were in Oxford, and I was twirling like a Whirling Dervish, and the pregnancy bump came off (Michael laughs) It landed on the stage and Richard just went! I mean we literally had to stuff it back up my corset. We were wild

MICHAEL: It was a brilliant production. I had a fantastic time doing it. My favourite memory was, I think, in Glasgow where somebody right at the beginning, when Tim was saying, you know, goes to the future. How he started the play in the wheelchair as an old man

Goes to the future. “Come with me. I will take you on a journey.” And somebody in the audience shouted, “you didn't do it, Salieri!” And he ignored it. And then they said, “We know you didn't murder Mozart!”, and then eventually said "no, bring the curtain down ... " -

TOYAH: I remember it because I just felt for him because that opening speech, I mean, how many pages long was it? It was a constant battle with that opening speech. And then they put him on a bath chair and I don't know if you remember in Sheffield, it rolled off the stage -

MICHAEL: I do, yes!

TOYAH: I think he was in it and he had to jump out. He battled so much, and was also battling with keeping Compass Theatre Company afloat. And even though we were a sold out tour, he was still battling with budgets. He was remarkable

MICHAEL: It was a fantastic performance as well, wasn't it?

TOYAH: Breathtaking

MICHAEL: It really was mesmerising

TOYAH: And Richard McCabe was playing Mozart for real

MICHAEL: Yeah, he played the piano. Amazing

TOYAH: I mean, who could do that today?

MICHAEL: It's never been done before or since, fantastic. Oh, happy memories. So anyway, I'm going to bring you back to stones. When did you first start collecting stones then?

TOYAH: When I could afford to

MICHAEL: It wasn't coloured glass from the beach then?

TOYAH: Tell you what, that is very perceptive of you because the first stone I fell in love with - I was 23, and I think and I was on Lynmouth beach, and the stone was the size of my head and it has white lines going through it, massive! And I took it and you're not allowed to do that these days

And that stone is still with me. It's outside my kitchen door now. And if anyone moves it - we have gardeners ... If anyone moves it, they get an email and a phone call. “Come back now and put that stone back!” (Michael laughs)

And I love it for exactly the same reason I love my topaz ring. It's part of the Big Bang and we're all part of that process. And so that's when it started, I was 23 - so I'm 63 now ... 40 years ago

MICHAEL: You're slightly younger than me -

TOYAH: Am I?!

MICHAEL: And you look 10 years younger (they both laugh)

TOYAH: Thank you!

MICHAEL: Well, I think it's very important to have an awareness of the enormity of time and your place in it. But also not to use it to make yourself feel insignificant but as you say … lucky

TOYAH: Yeah. God, you’re perceptive! I love this! I was having a conversation with a journalist from the Financial Times last week because he was fascinated that I collect crystals. I have 22 rare crystals in this room and it’s called the Crystal Room. And he said “I'm having a really bad time, I've given up on hoping about the future. I feel insignificant in my life”

And I picked out one crystal - I’d pick it up for you but it's so heavy I can't lift it! And I said "look, this has come from a Big Bang we really know nothing about. It's made from carbon. We are made from carbon. This peach I'm holding up I'm having for my breakfast is made from carbon. We are all the same process. We're all the same thing. We have a gift of being in an organic body so we can be potential and experience potential. Then we go back to the big process" and he got it. Feeling insignificant is nothing but waking you up to your own potential. We are not insignificant

MICHAEL: No. That thing that you say of driving yourself on I mean, not driving yourself but actually filling your time, making use of it. I mean, again and again there are many people who would have said well, alright, I had enormous success as a pop star and then you might’ve gone well, we'll just do a sort of few reminiscence tours and it makes nice money and things like that. But you don't. You write new stuff, you perform again and actually, your latest album has charted

TOYAH: Yeah, it went to number one across the board. And this is a very interesting fact, Michael - Amazon's top seller, so I went straight to number one in the Amazon chart. I went number one into dance charts, the rock charts. I was number one best seller in the UK for a week

MICHAEL: That's amazing

TOYAH: Yeah, in the Official Chart I was number 22. Because my generation don't use Spotify. This is generational. So the album is called “Posh Pop” and this physical CD I'm holding up outsold Queen, outstripped Metallica, it just sold in tens of thousands. But I was pipped to the post by the younger artists who are downloaded on Spotify

MICHAEL: Yes, and get paid nothing for it

TOYAH: I agree. So it's a very interesting time. I returned big time successfully to music when I played Wembley in 2002. Because Youtube had given younger audiences the chance to experience heritage artists like me and (they) want to see us live and I've not looked back since

MICHAEL: No, I'm not surprised. I mean, when you burst onto the scene, you were completely unique

TOYAH: Yeah, well, I was unique. I was androgynous. I called myself third gender. I was very very tomboy and very strong. I came from punk and then got adopted by the New Wave movement and then into rock. But I do think if I came in exploiting my female sexuality, I would have had a much, much bigger career (they both laugh)

MICHAEL: It's possibly true. Yes, play the play the game

TOYAH: Play the game! I was a rule breaker from day one

MICHAEL: And what led you to be that?

TOYAH: I think, actually, I had to create a character - (because of) lack of confidence. I've never had confidence in my femininity. I'm very physically small. I mean, I'm barely five foot tall. People … how can I put this? ... In a physicality way people talk down to you. And it's only in recent years I've realised the techniques that short people use to appear tall and that is you never look up when you talk to someone else

I learned this off the Queen and I learned this off Kylie Minogue. You never crane your neck to look up at someone. You use your eyes to look up. Therefore you always look as though you're the same height as everyone else. I could only have learned that with the invention of phone cameras

When you can go online and you can study how people's body language is and I learnt it off movie stars who have to act with people like Charlize Theron and Nicole Kidman, who are both over six foot - the smaller guys never ever crane their neck to look at them. So I think my beginning characteristics was I made myself huge in the space. So I was a rebel. I was a loud punk rocker but now, because I can study technique on camera, I can rein it in

MICHAEL: My wife is only five foot. Well, she'll say five foot and a quarter

TOYAH: I say 5’1” I just lie (Michael laughs)

MICHAEL: But she has exactly that skill. And she's always had it. People never think - people who are 5’8”say “you're the same as me, aren’t you?” and she never wears built up shoes. Everybody assumes that she's much taller than she is. Because she goes in with a presence and she just commands the room as it were

TOYAH: You have to. It does have its benefits. I get mistaken for a child at airport security quite a lot and I get brought right to the front of the queue with the line “come here, little girl” (Michael laughs) and then when I turn up they look at me they go “oh, my goodness!” It's that “don't look now” moment. You know, they go kind of argh! I exploit that every time I can

MICHAEL: Well, if you can't see over the crowd, you might as well burst through them

TOYAH: Gosh, you'll never get me in a mosh pit. There's no point. All I can see is backsides (Michael laughs)

MICHAEL: Alright, Toyah, so we're going to put rocks into the time capsule. We're going to move on to item number two

TOYAH: Item number two is a white pet rabbit who lived with me between 2007 and 2016. He lived for nine years, he was very, very special. He was a house rabbit. He’d sit by my feet in this office. Completely humanised and was with us 24 hours a day. And when I had to go on the road, he went into a rabbit hotel, and he cost me about £7000 pounds a year in dental treatments and in hotels (Michael laughs)

And obviously he has passed away, rabbits don't have long lives. But I would like to see him again because he was so gorgeous and he put everything into perspective. All he wanted was to eat, sleep, be stroked and hump soft toys

When I was freaking out and (I was) over pressured and everything was too much I just would hold him and feel his little beating heart and it would calm me down. He was definitely definitely one of those animals that people would take on an aeroplane to keep them calm

MICHAEL: What was his name?

TOYAH: WillyFred. He was called that after the drummer in REM, who is my third time capsule item. Our greatest friend, who when he wasn't in America would live with us here. But let's keep to bunny first. WillyFred bunny was a pink eyed New Zealand white with huge character. People would actually knock on the front door and asked to see him because they loved him so much

When the vet finally said - the rabbit was nine years old and by this time I was carrying him everywhere and hand feeding him with a syringe - the vet said “no, you can't keep doing this. If you keep hand feeding him he can't go through the natural process. He won't die, he will just keep deteriorating”

So the vet and all the nurses came to our house and we put him on the kitchen table and we all said goodbye to him. And they gave him the inevitable injection and we were all holding him as he passed away and the whole room was in tears. That's how popular this rabbit was. He was the biggest flirt. He would pull women's skirts, he would flirt with women. He would just look at a woman and completely win her over

We believe that this rabbit was the soul of a Buddha just biding time, waiting to be reincarnated in another life. He was that wise that we treated him as if he was a soul just passing through time. And everyone, when we put him down, who worked with this little bunny rabbit was in the room saying goodbye to him

MICHAEL: There are moments, aren't there, where animals are so clearly thinking, I think

TOYAH: Oh God, you can't deny it. They have emotional light. I mean, this sounds ridiculous, but I keep Koi fish. And at the moment we've got a female Koi who's about to pass and the other fish will not let me near her. I've tried to remove her from the pond so she can be dispatched. Every time we go to remove her from the pond … whoomph! They stop us taking her away

And what I trust about that is they're telling us to let her go through her own process. And you know, animals have emotional lives. They have natural intelligence that goes beyond our bodily intelligence. Animals are emotionally connected. And a very, very special

MICHAEL: Yes. I saw a wonderful photograph on Instagram I think the other day where was somebody said that this was the best example of photo bombing they'd ever seen. And it was basically photographs of their wedding and there was a dog and it just was looking back at the camera as to say (with a disappointed voice)“Oh my God … not another one ...”

TOYAH: Yeah! Animals are … I mean, how can we live without them? They're just so remarkable

MICHAEL: You say £7000 pounds a year on bills ... but that must have been worth it?

TOYAH: It was worth it. And I had a rabbit with bad teeth. So to save his life literally once a month he had to have his teeth kind of clipped. And it just was ridiculously expensive

MICHAEL: Are they quite large, the New Zealand rabbits?

TOYAH: The largest I ever had was 10 kg’s

MICHAEL: Oh my God!

TOYAH: It was like picking up a dog. They're bred for their meat so they grow very quickly. WillyFred was 3 kg’s

MICHAEL: Yeah, but that's a good armful, isn't it?

TOYAH: Yeah

MICHAEL: Well, in that case - WillyFred is in your time capsule for you to revisit

TOYAH: Thank you. The third item is the actual human being that WillyFred was named after called Bill Rieflin (below with Toyah) and Bill passed away at the beginning of lockdown last year. I made three albums with Bill, he was the drummer in REM. But in my band Toyah And The Humans, he was the bass player. He was one of these remarkable human beings that could play every instrument. He would just pick an instrument up and within three hours he could play it in a virtuoso way. Don't you just hate those people?

MICHAEL: Yeah, I know some

TOYAH: Bill, my husband Robert Fripp and I, we would travel the world together. We were inseparable. Both Robert and I are very, very independent human beings. I can have a lot of time alone. Robert can have a lot of time alone. And Bill was the same but put the three of us together and the dynamics were like nothing I have ever experienced in my life. And our time together, our precious time together ... I met Bill in 2003 and the three of us became inseparable until he passed away about March the 24th 2020. We were inseparable

MICHAEL: What did he die of? Do you mind if I ask?

TOYAH: He had prostate cancer. He did not have it checked in time. Both Robert and I knew he was behaving strangely. Something was bothering him. So I flew to Seattle, about 2012 and I said "Bill, I've come here to tell you to go and have a Well Man check." He did. And he was told he had advanced prostate cancer. But he survived. I mean, he was lucky enough to be in Seattle, which is the world leading cancer area

So he did survive and he was - I hate to say this because I know it irritates cancer patients - but he was a fighter. He would not accept that his time had been shortened by this and his surgery was brutal because it went into his colon and then it went into his lungs. He lost a lung, he lost part of his colon, he lost his bowel. But he was still determined - he was touring with King Crimson a few years before his death. So he really did live a very, very good life

MICHAEL: That's part of what you were talking about, the preciousness of life, the knowledge that it's such a wonderful gift. And when people fight like that to just ... “I want a bit more, just a bit more” -

TOYAH: Yeah, he inspired me incredibly because he was always learning - he loved language. So he was always learning right up until the end. And he came over to the UK and I spent two days driving him around the UK meeting healers I trust and energy healers. Healers don't necessarily heal the physical body, they help prepare you for what you're about to transition into. And that really helped Bill because he had no faith. So whenever he was in the UK, we did that. We got healers into the house, who explained what the transition of the soul is, how energy transitions and it can never die, energy can never die

So it was his learning process I feel has helped me not fear death. It's helped Robert not fear death. And we managed to get out to Seattle to see him just a few months before he passed and we went and sat with him in oncology while he was having treatment in Seattle. And for us it was a shared process, which just gave us strength. And as you say, made us realise that ... I'm 63, my husband's 75 … It doesn't mean you stop. We live to live. We don't live to die

MICHAEL: Absolutely. And it's a real lesson that when life is hard, and it's a struggle people really find it precious. So in a way it's wasteful to not find life precious when it's easy

TOYAH: I know when it's easy - when you write a song in two minutes and you think the next song will feel like that. You take it for granted. I think people get exhausted by life. Life is genuinely challenging and exhausting. But I think at that point you reach out and this is where friendship and love and community helps put you back on your feet

MICHAEL: So you mentioned Robert (below with Toyah) so I'm going to say how did you meet him? Because it's just an extraordinary thing - coming together of these two greats from the pop industry

TOYAH: Well, thank you. We first met in a taxi on our way to a Nordoff Robbins (Music Therapy) charity lunch at the Hotel Intercontinental, Park Lane. And we didn't really know each other but we had the same management and I found this legendary rock guitarist, who I knew very little about, I had his album “Discipline”, but that's the only album I knew about, from 1981

I didn't know his 1970s history, or 1960s history, the Rolling Stones in Hyde Park. And I thought he was a very quiet, gentle, considered human being who didn't speak until he'd considered what he was going to say. And that just brought out the worst in me. And I was goading him and teasing him and provoking him in this 20 minute taxi journey

And then we had our photo taken with Princess Michael of Kent and I didn't meet him again for about another five years, by which point and this is what my husband does - he's known for this … He was living in New York at the time, and his diary wasn't filling for a three week consecutive period and he decided that I was his wife. He said he just knew, he knew as soon as he met me that I was his wife. So he came back to England, arranged for us to make an album together and he proposed to me

MICHAEL: Wow, that's amazing!

TOYAH: Now, another angle on that story is he gets into a lot of trouble because he has dreams that come true. And he dreamt he was in the studio with David Bowie about eight years ago. And he wrote this in his diary. “Oh, in my dream, I was making an album with David Bowie, Tony Visconti was producing.” Well, at that time Tony Visconti was producing “The Last Day”, Bowie’s penultimate album. Visconti hit the roof, because the press picked up on Robert’s diary as actual and announced Bowie making the album

MICHAEL: No!

TOYAH: Yeah, and it was a dream

MICHAEL: That's incredible!

TOYAH: It is incredible and everyone in our community, because we live on a High Street, we're surrounded by shops and businesses, and they're all our best friends. Everyone on this High Street knows that if Robert has a dream it's going to come true. So he's like our little talking newspaper (Michael laughs)

MICHAEL: Brilliant. I mean, I have to say that my awareness of my knowledge of people in Robert’s position ... I mean, he'd had 10-15 years of extraordinary success, worldwide success, been regarded as one of the greatest guitarists of all time, I think

So to suddenly meet someone, well, what I'm going to say is that in that situation, as you will know, having been in the business - the opportunity of meeting beautiful women is almost inevitable. It's thrown at you all the time. So the fact that meeting you in the back of a car he made that decision, that's astonishing insight. It's intuitive, isn't it? And it's amazingly certain. That's real love, I think. That's true love

TOYAH: Yeah. A brutal observation of it is that I didn't want to have children. I'm phobic about childbirth, and my family life wasn't comfortable, my childhood was not comfortable. So I wasn't attracted to having a large family. And when Robert met me I was highly independent. I didn't need his money. I didn't intend on getting pregnant and he could see that you could have a relationship with someone that would still allow him his freedom to travel and his independence

MICHAEL: And you'd understand his world as well, wouldn't you?

TOYAH: Yeah, I did. But I've had to fight for my place in this marriage. And in the beginning, the first two years, I was like a war warrior fighting women off who felt that they could do better than me. And he always said it was never a problem for him. But he was always being targeted by women because he had a reputation of being highly sexed. And he said "well, that was myth rather than legend". The first two years I found incredibly tough. And now I feel I'm in my prime at 63 and there's a lot going on, my career is just ascending. I'm very, very confident in our marriage and everything, but it was a tough beginning

MICHAEL: Well, I'm going to take you back and I will put Bill (above with Toyah) into the time capsule for you

TOYAH: Thank you!

MICHAEL: And as with all these things, wouldn't it be lovely to see them again?

TOYAH: Yeah, definitely. I feel Bill is with me. My album “Posh Pop” … I’m utterly convinced he was standing beside me, helping it be the success it became. I don't feel separated from him at all

MICHAEL: No. OK, so that's number three. So we're going to move on to item number four.

TOYAH: It's a phone call and you will know this and every actor and performer will know this. It's the very first phone call I ever had telling me I'd got the job, and the whole world is yours in that moment. I was 17. I was at drama school. I've been seen by the Bicat brothers, Nick and Tony Bicat, playwrights, music writers, to do a half hour play with Phil Daniels and Noel Edmunds about a young girl breaking into the Top Of The Pops studio to become a singer

And I've been down to London, done the audition with Phil Daniels, never expected to hear back and it was a Sunday 11 o'clock in the morning. I was about to go out and visit Blenheim Palace with some drama student friends. The phone rang at my home, Grove Road, Birmingham. I picked the phone up and it was a secretary saying “Toyah, you've got the job. You start on Monday”

I cannot tell you ... that moment has never ever been overtaken by anything else. Because I just knew my life was about to change. It was glorious and the nervousness, the feeling of being an imposter. Can I do it? Will I be OK? Of course I can do it! I'm going to be the best ever! You just travel through the universe of potential and egotism and I'm going to do this! I'm going to do that! This is only the beginning! All those emotions. That day was the heightened day and when my friends came to pick me up, I just said "I've got the job!" They were elated for me. Elated!

MICHAEL: I can imagine. Did you sing in that show?

TOYAH: Yeah, I had to write the music as well

MICHAEL: Wow!

TOYAH: Tony Bicat put me together with a band called Bilbo Baggins, who were like the little brother to the Bay City Rollers. A Glasgow band. They were gorgeous, I was just in love with them all. Pebble Mill, we rehearsed in there, Bilbo Baggins, the band were put into a room

So I would rehearse with Phil Daniels and Noel Edmonds in the daytime and then I would go into the room with Bilbo Baggins, where we would work on lyrics together, and the music together and they taught me how to sing with the band, because I've never done that

So I composed the lyrics with Tony Bicat, Bilbo Baggins, and then the band moved into the studio when we were actually recording this half hour play called “Glitter”. And we performed it live

MICHAEL: Oh my God!

TOYAH: Just looking back I wish I could do it now. I wish I could go back as Toyah now with all of my experience and record that play now and sing it now because I would give a performance that would be Oscar winning (Michael laughs) My performance was very, very naive. Not bad, but just naive and totally inexperienced, which I think is what the Bicat brothers wanted

MICHAEL: But also, I suppose what attracted people at the National Theatre to you. They saw this naivety but a freshness and something new

TOYAH: It is extraordinary because Kate Nelligan and Maximilian Schell were watching that go out live and we made it in May of ‘76. It went out October ‘76 and by November same year I was living in London, a member of the National Theatre and that's all thanks to Kate Nelligan, who took a real shine to me. I ended up living with her for nine months, she had a granny flat at her house in Stockwell. And she said “come and move into that flat”

MICHAEL: She's fantastic, Kate Nelligan

TOYAH: She's amazing and Brenda Blethyn was in the cast as well. They just kind of scooped me up, tolerated me and supported me. They were wonderful people

MICHAEL: I did a fantastic play with Brenda. Well, it was a terrible play actually, but we had a fantastic time doing it

TOYAH: Where did you do it?

MICHAEL: We did it at the Almeida

TOYAH: Ooooh!

MICHAEL: I know. Sounds posh, doesn’t it?

TOYAH: You wouldn’t think there was a terrible play at the Almeida

MICHAEL: It was a terrible play, sadly. They chose badly, but she was fantastic in it and I had to grab her breasts every night

TOYAH: Oh! Dear Brenda! How long ago was this?

MICHAEL: So that would have been at the end of the 90s. It was fun …

TOYAH: Well, you were older and wise by then

MICHAEL: I was wise enough to know that we were acting. She did this extraordinary thing. She played a sort of a frustrated housewife which you can imagine she did absolutely brilliantly. And she knew that I was famous for my love life. And so she'd started talking to me about it and then said "what's it like?" and I said "what?" and she said "when people touch you?" and I said "do you want to find out?"

She said "OK" so I said "well, let's start here" and I put my hands on her breasts. And I did that every night and then one night I did it and I slightly moved my hands and she fell to the floor going ooohhhh! (Toyah cackles) Afterwards, I said "I'm so sorry. What did I do?" and she said, "it’s alright - I've got very sensitive nipples"

TOYAH: Oh my God! I love that!

MICHAEL: I love Brenda

TOYAH: She’s so generous because on the first day of rehearsals at the National Theatre (Toyah in "Tales From The Vienna Woods", above), she didn't know me from anyone else. She said "have you got diggs?" And I said "no. I'll go back to Birmingham. She said "you can't do that every day, come and sleep on my sofa". And I thought I don't want to sleep on the sofa. This what I was like and then Kate Nelligan says “I have a granny flat” … “I'll stay there”. Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth! I was a very ill experienced young person

MICHAEL: She was well established by then, Brenda, at the National. She did “Bedroom Farce”, I remember she was fantastic in that

TOYAH: I loved and adored her not only for her talent, but her generosity as a human being as well

MICHAEL: Yes … Oh, I've just gone into a revelry (they both laugh)

TOYAH: I've never touched her breasts though

MICHAEL: No. Well, I never really have. I mean it was acting. There we are. Oh, that phone call. Well, we're lucky in our profession that we've all had those moments. But I think everybody must have a phone call and they think it's going to affect their life. And that moment comes and it's a wonderful thing, isn't it? Particularly when you're young?

TOYAH: I have to tell you one that I'm now allowed to talk about because I had to sign a disclosure contract about it. I went for an audition three years ago, and I walked into the studio and I thought this is a blind audition. There's cameras everywhere. There's the top casting people in the world in the room. And they said "we can't tell you what it's for. The script is not the script you're up for." And I learned this to a T, I gave them the performance of a life and I just thought, well this is weird because it is a blind audition. And I left and got the phone call. "J.J. Abrams is calling you in an hour"

MICHAEL: Oh my God!

TOYAH: I actually ran to the loo. I thought I was going to puke

MICHAEL: I’m not surprised

TOYAH: It didn't happen. It didn't come about because I thought it was a joke. And when the call came I asked too many questions. And I was trying to test to see if I was being wound up and I probably came across as far too controlling. So it didn't happen

MICHAEL: Well, yeah, not everything comes up. We've all had those as well where you're close. But how fantastic! I will definitely take that. The phone is ringing inside there, you can pick it up anytime you like (Toyah laughs) “Toyah. You've got the job, you start on Monday”

TOYAH: Yeah, I’d love that!

MICHAEL: Right. OK, we got one thing left. Now this is something that you're supposed to get rid of from your life

TOYAH: It's the combination of fresh raspberries and almonds

MICHAEL: Oh, really? That sounds delicious to me

TOYAH: No. I can eat them separately. But if you put them together in a dish I get really, really funny. Part of it is my dear mother had a habit of doing what you asked her not to do. So an example of this - I don't do pantomime anymore. I don't have to do it and I'm too old to do it. It breaks your body

But I would have one day off for Christmas and that would be Christmas Day and my mother (above front in 1946) would say "what would you like for Christmas lunch?" and I'd say "I would love a trifle. I want a trifle. I want it full of sherry and cherries and no almonds, no raspberries". And she'd arrive on Christmas Day. “I've made you an almond and raspberry trifle.” She would always do exactly what I asked her not to do

So if she made me a cup of tea I'd say “Mum, no milk, no sugar, just black tea.” “There's your tea, it's got three sugars and milk.” It was always that. “Mum, turn left, turn left” She turned right. And it gave me a phobia of almonds and raspberries. And I bought two cottages. One for them to get them out of Birmingham, because they started to get break-ins because people knew they were my mum and dad

So I retired them into a beautiful cottage on the river Avon, and I bought the cottage next door and I needed to do this cottage up and it had wild raspberries growing. And I started to write a book one morning and I was in the first chapter, in the moment delivering this first chapter at my computer, in the silence of my cottage

Unfortunately I'd put a doorway in between the gardens and my mother was outside the window going “You’ve got to pick the raspberries! The raspberries will rot on the vine!” I got a pair of shears. I cut the raspberries and I threw them in the fucking river Avon and I've not eaten raspberries since and I said “there's your fucking raspberries!” (Michael laughs)

MICHAEL: You've had quite a relationship with your mom then over the years

TOYAH: (exasperated) Oh! I don't know where to start. I have to write the play, the book and the film about this relationship

MICHAEL: You should!

TOYAH: Well, I never knew until December the 3rd last year when ancestry.com contacted me to tell me about some press cuttings they found - my mother, very likely at the age of 14, witnessed her father murder her mother. There was a court case. It was a crime of punishment. My mother was born out of wedlock, which is why she was such a snob and kind of refused to acknowledge anything in the working class system. She was very, very complex, really complex and she was living a character she created so no one could discover her history

And she was just driven mad by her history. And she had a chaperone. She was a dancer, a professional dancer and she had a female chaperone (in the photo above behind the car) who even shared her bedroom with her. My mother was never allowed to be alone probably because her father only went to prison for three months. He escaped the gallows. He was free. And I think the chaperone was with her right up until she married my dad to make sure the father never got near her

MICHAEL: Good Lord!

TOYAH: And she had to live this lie. My mum could hardly write, she could hardly read but she was a trained dancer. She opened for Max Wall on tour. A very complex woman and I think when my father came along and proposed to her - and my father was wealthy - she saw a way of escaping her past and closing the doors on that

So my relationship with my mother (with Toyah in 2010, below) was one of the most destructive, negative things I've ever experienced in my life. It was never a positive experience because she would always do the opposite. And we feel she did that because if she showed me love, or she showed me what she desired, I would die. So she always did the opposite and almost to the point of killing me at times

MICHAEL: So when you found this incredible thing out only recently did you suddenly re-evaluate the whole thing or …?

TOYAH: Yeah, I mean, I had to be with counsellors in the room when they told me. They were so concerned about how it would affect me and it did affect me because it was literally like a jigsaw puzzle falling out of the sky of my past and just all falling into place. I suddenly understood this extraordinary past. So did my brother, my sister, my husband, I mean all of the family spouses suddenly realised why my mother would destroy every moment. It's because she felt if she didn't, that we will be in danger

MICHAEL: Yes. You can't be happy

TOYAH: You can't be happy. I've really had to re-evaluate everything in the in last 10 months and there is a song on “Posh Pop” called “Barefoot On Mars”, which has gone viral because it's about that moment, and I just wish she could have told us while she was alive because we would have got her therapist. We'd have done therapy with her, we would have been kinder to her rather than exasperated by her. She refused medical attention. She refused medical help. She was destructive on every level to her physical body and her mental health

MICHAEL: And yours

TOYAH: I think she made me who and what I am and my God I’m tough

MICHAEL: Yeah. You are Toyah. Well, I'm going to put that into the time capsule for you, but I don't think you really need to lock it away. I think you're perfectly capable of dealing with it. You're an extraordinary woman

TOYAH: Thank you. Just don't show me a raspberry (Michael laughs)

MICHAEL: Particularly not with almonds on it

TOYAH: And can I add one more thing which is purely for my oral pleasure? And that's a Cadbury's Creme Egg

MICHAEL: All right, in the sealed compartment are raspberries and almonds and sitting on top of it a lovely Cadbury's Creme Egg

TOYAH: Yeah! (laughs) I love it!

MICHAEL: Brilliant. How wonderful to talk to you. How lovely to see you again, looking so well

TOYAH: Well, thank you and I hope that we get to work together!

MICHAEL: Yeah, that would be fantastic. Keep well!

TOYAH: Alright!

MICHAEL: Bye!