TOYAH ON
CATtales
21.5.2020

CAT: Hi, you're listening to CATtales and my guest today really needs no introduction. She appeared in the 1978 film “Jubilee” and “Quadrophenia” the following year. Her early hit singles included “It's A Mystery” and “I Want To Be Free”, and by 1982 she had made two platinum selling albums.

After more than 40 years in the music business, she is as creatively hungry as she was in her teens. She's a singer and actress, a writer, a punk rebel and an icon. But most importantly, she is an independent, strong woman who doesn't take any prisoners. This is the one with Toyah Willcox. What a ridiculous time we’re in!

TOYAH: Well, I certainly won’t be promoting concerts!
(they both laugh)

CAT: I know, I know, it's terrible, isn't it? Everybody’s saying the same thing ... it's like they have tours and had to cancel it all. It's heart breaking, isn't it?

TOYAH: The thing is like a lot of us have been building up to this year and it's been a phenomenal journey from about 2001, the wave of 80's being so popular has been incredible. But a lot of artists had just been building to this year with their kind of independence.

So yes, we do all these fantastic festivals and we do these multi-star line-ups but quite a few of us to work really hard to go out and be solo on tour and and this year we’re supposed to going out with Hazel O'Connor on a completely sold out tour, but also my own tours at the same time. So it's very, very frustrating.

CAT: Oh, it must be. As I saw about the tour that you were doing with Hazel and I thought that's going to be a must see, so I'm not surprised to hear it's been sold out.

TOYAH: It is still going to happen. And I think what will happen once we find a way of being out in the open safely. And I suppose the most obvious way that's going to happen is a vaccine. I think we're going to have a decadent 20s. We're going to go back 100 years to a lifestyle of complete decadence. I think we're all like pressure cookers waiting to go off. And we're gonna party party party.

And I know from talking to venues and promoters from my side, the venues need as much help as they can get. So even though this year was going to be one of the busiest years of my life, I think next year is going to be beyond the busiest years of all our lives because we're going be opening the venues, helping the venues, keeping those venues running almost 24 hours a day so that the rock economy can get back on its feet. I think next year, technically, and kind of wishful thinking is going to be an incredible year.

CAT: I think that's a really good observation. You could be right, as long as we can also hold on that long, which with the human spirit we will do. It will be like the end of the war years, won't it?

TOYAH: Yeah, we are in recession and I mean I've not earned a penny for 14 months. But you know I can survive. The passion to work and the passion to be in front of my audience is not diminishing - its growing and I think it's the same for everyone and come the point where we could all go out there and work I just think we are going to just run our socks off and make everything come back the way we knew it, but much better.

CAT: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right and you do sound so passionate about stuff which is so refreshing with 40 years in the industry, you sound actually more alive now that you probably ever have done.

TOYAH: Well, I think like many artists my age, I turn 62 on Monday, we're in control of our lives now and what we do we do because we really love it and I don't feel the pressure I was under in my 20’s. When you’re a new upcoming artist and you've got to just keep coming up when new looks, new music and it was relentless and I found it very very … it wasn't conducive to being creative, whereas these days where we can go about our lives as kind of sixty somethings, we’re driving the engine, we can put out there when we're ready to put out there and it makes life a lot more rewarding.

CAT: Absolutely. I think the 60 is the new 40, isn't it?

TOYAH: I think it's the new 30’s personally ...

CAT: Yes! (laughs)

TOYAH: I didn't enjoy my 30’s so I'm determined that 60 is going to make up for that.

CAT: The autumn years are the best years. So you’ve got lots and lots of strings to your bow. You started out in acting. You’re better known as a musician probably, but you do presenting, producing, voiceover, writing. That's a lot of balls to have in the air, Toyah. What’s your preference or are you just a good juggler?


TOYAH: I like to be busy and if I can do it and do it well, I'm gonna do it. Obviously I love music, but I can't relentlessly stay tuned in that way. It drains you. So I find going away doing a film, doing a stage play or voiceovering or making a documentary ... they refuel me. They kind of give me new ideas, they connect me to new people.

So I find it's all complimentary. It all helps the other, I find it very healthy and I think a lot of people are working that way. I know when I started in the business, I think 42 years ago, you couldn't do that. People wouldn't allow you to do that. There was so much snobbery in every area. But now I think you're able to do it and people still respect you and see you for what you are.

CAT: I totally agree. Actually, it's more like the entertainment business now, isn't it? Rather than having those specific genres, that you couldn't crossover those boundaries, which I suppose I should say it helps your creativity in different areas?

TOYAH: Yes, totally it does. I agree. But also, I think with the internet everything has become slightly diluted. I remember when I started my career I was at the National Theatre, I was 18 years old and this is in London and actors just wouldn't do voiceovers. Actors wouldn't do adverts. Stage actors wouldn't do TV and they had no money (both laugh)

Learning from an actor who didn't act much but made over 75 K a year, 42 years ago, doing voiceovers, everyone was just dribbling at the thought of it so I think we live in a much more balanced world. I don't think people beat themselves up so much over those kind of snobberies anymore.

CAT: That's true, that's possibly down to the internet, as you say, isn’t it and social media being a big influence really?

TOYAH: For me this learning curve on this particular lockdown has been social media because I'm slightly technophobic and I've had to learn how to do it and I've had to turn it around to give myself presence and it's been a fabulous journey in that alone. I got my first 1.2 million hits on something I posted and all of that is such an important thing in this time - that you can stay connected to your audience via social media. So it's all a learning curve.

I'm quite an insular person when I'm being creative, which is virtually everyday - it's a silent process. It's not a process where I want a phone in my hand, so I had to learn a way that I can connect to my fans through social media. And what I'm doing I absolutely love, and it's just posting slightly Dadaistic films to make them laugh. It's done me the world of good, my agent is calling me everyday and saying, "do you know so and so has just seen this" "do you know know they’ll book you because of this film" and it's worked and I'm very very grateful.

 

 

CAT: It’s wonderful. I've been watching some of them, I've been having a right laugh at you with a tutu and Robert there doing it. Doing the Swan Lake impression which is wonderful!

TOYAH: That’s the controversial one. It made the headlines in Italian newspapers that one because Italians pride themselves on being almost exclusively intellectual and for Robert (below with Toyah in 1997) to do that, my husband's Robert Fripp of the band King Crimson - for him to do that was blasphemous, and you had super über authors in Italy debating this and my husband is not kind man if you criticise him and he attacked these people online and again that was making headlines.

It’s well known in the industry if you diss my husband he’ll diss you a 100 time more (they both laugh) and this was making headlines and my husband found it very entertaining and last week having journalists say in an Italian newspaper, top newspaper, “Oh yes, I was reading an interview with Fripp” ... I mean not even having met him or interviewed him - “I read an interview with with Fripp and I came to the conclusion he’s a jerk” Boy, was that the red rag to the bull!

CAT: Oh dear! First of all it’s terrible for him to say that full stop, but not even sitting and meeting him ...

TOYAH: Well, thats’s the power of … we all have a voice now, so it's just been very, very enlightening and at sometimes entertaining.

CAT: Absolutely and what's lovely about that. Is it still that rebellious side of your nature and Robert joining in there creating it for you, how wonderful is that? You're known for your rebellion, aren't you?

TOYAH: Yeah, I think my rebellion is slightly kinder (they both laugh) But yes, I just never conformed to this thing about age. I think age is a privilege. I think the fact we live so long is a privilege, but it doesn't mean that I diminish and I’m just totally against this attitude, especially within the music industry.

I think it's improving in TV and film now but because a woman hits a certain age, she's no longer a sexually driven or desirable creature, and no longer has thoughts. That's changing but in the music business it's going to take a bit longer to do that. But thank goodness my audience and my generation still love what I do, and I always say to my audience the reason I'm standing on this stage is because of you. And it is you only so I'm really appreciative of that.

 

CAT: Yeah, I think that's a really great thing to say actually. We're still the same people even though we're ageing. Everybody's ageing. But there is this attitude against women, isn't there? And it's such a ridiculous concept that you're only desirable or you're only talented or whatever when you're young. It’s just bizarre ...

TOYAH: Well, I mean obviously when we're young the energy is 10 times stronger. But I think the whole thing about growing old is we become better, we become enriched, we become deeper and that needs to be recognised and appreciated because we have so much to offer. We've been there, we've seen it. We've got the t-shirt. We know the warning signs. So we have just so much to give. I also think with the lockdown and everything with the internet being what it is, we've been able to explain ourselves a bit better because that's given us a platform.

But musically I find that OK, I'm still Toyah. I still have my voice. I still sound like Toyah. Technically I'm a better singer than I have ever been because when I started out I was singing through pure will and ambition and determination. Now I'm technically a singer. I'm really, really good at what I do and I just don't want to not use that, it's a gift.  When it comes to writing, my writing is clearer. And I don't feel under pressure to do 4 albums a year, which people would have had me do 42 years ago.

But the creativity and that flow, and the connection with my audience is very, very alive and I just don't want to be told that I should slow down. It's it's such a bizarre thing to be told when you can see your finite amount of time. I find myself speeding up and I'm trying to fill that time positively with the best work I can possibly do, because I know that is the memory I leave behind and memories have value.


CAT: Absolutely. It’s your legacy isn't it and that's really your purpose on this world is finite as you say, and to have something that you can in fact leave (which) is tangible and has touched so many people, it is absolutely wonderful.

TOYAH: I know and I think prime examples of that is George Michael, Prince, Michael Jackson, Hendrix, Bowie. I mean, it's just such an example of the power of our lives. The power of our lives continue. So I really value the time I have.

CAT: Yeah, I totally agree and it's great that you can actually tap into all that experience that you've had over the years and so your writing, for example, is possibly, as you say, more enriched because of it.

TOYAH: Because experience, I just want my next album to be a danceable album. I wanna go out next year and perform music where you see tens of thousands of people dancing and dancing because I think we all need to just celebrate this together.

CAT: Yeah, you're right. And it's nice to hear that you are saying that you want to do something a little bit different with that. That's your sort of your trademark really. Progressing through the years, doing something different through the years. I mean, just even going back to the early days, having such amazing hairstyles and the make-up and everything was very of the moment grabbing it while you could, but you changed and moved with the times and I think that's really good.

TOYAH: Yeah. There's two reasons for this. I'm auditioning for movies virtually every day. An I can't send a film in because at the moment because we’re all self- taping. I can't do that if I've got pink hair. You can't send a film to a world class director if you look like a punk rocker and you're reading for woman from the 18th century.

So I've I've had to kind of control my look and also I just didn't want to look or even attempt look how I did 42 years ago. It's not right. The only woman I know who can getaway with that is Sandra Rhodes because she is a designer. She's absolutely stunning. She's brilliant and that is her trademark. For me my trademark is energy and my voice so I just want to look good at 62. That's what I want.

CAT: Yeah, absolutely. And don't you just, I have to say. I'm admiring your your your energy, your look and everything. You look wonderful to have to say. So I tell you what we're going to do. We're going to play “Sensational” just for you off your album “In The Court of The Crimson Queen” because you are. We will be right back in a moment.

CAT: (after the song) What I was going to talk about was about this idea of conformism and rebellion. Have you found that actually that has left you that feeling of wanting to rebel and you just held onto the energy and tapping into your experience? Or is there still something that you feel that you can rebel against?

TOYAH: I feel as though I rebel every day and it's purely that kind of theme of agesism and again I also feel I rebel every day because since I got married 34 years ago I've always been the little woman at home in the eyes of men. I rebel against that all the time, so my rebellion is ongoing. It's slightly more sophisticated.

I'm not a political person and I think where rebellion is very, very valuable is in the political field, but I just don't think that way. So my rebellion is is a lot more gentle, but it's definitely there and it's definitely a way of life.

And part of that is I just will not conform to someone else's view of what a woman should be and that will always be with me. Apart from that I think within my work my rebellion is still there because again, I just don't think I can conform. I don't fit in and this started when I moved into the outside world at the age of four and a half and went to school, I just realised I was never going to quite fit in.

And if you're always a square peg trying to fit into a round hole, you're not in the right place. You find your place and for me it's by being observationally different. So I am just me and I won't kind of hone those edges ...


CAT: Yeah, I read some of the interviews you’ve obviously done before,  saying you had like a violent childhood and you were sort of kicking back against everything. Do you look back at that now and think that you overreacted to things? Or was that just part and parcel of growing up and trying to hone this energy?

TOYAH: OK, my background I wouldn't say was violent. It was mentally aggressive. It was psychologically cruel. So I didn't understand this until I was an adult. So my rebellion was I had to get out of that situation and I had to have my independence and that still remains. Whenever I feel trapped, that just still remains, I need my independence.

It made me very solitary and distrusting. I'm a bit better on the trust front. My background was an all girls school where the clever, clever girls attacked the non-clever girls. Slight physical disability that amused many people a lot of the time.

My nickname was Hopalong and an exceptionally unkind mother who thought she was being kind. So my reaction was over the top, but it was my way of surviving so I think that's definitely made me what I am today. My mother and I reconciled in the last two years of her life, but even two weeks before she died we were having ferocious shouting matches. We were just not made for each other and that happened but we still loved each other. I held her as she died. So you can still experience love for someone that you just will never ever agree with.

CAT: Personalities, isn't it? Everybody is an individual and you've got have your own life that you need to lead. And people need to recognise that and give freedom, don't they?

TOYAH: Yeah, but I would also say for anyone out there that nurture above everything is all that counts. If you have a child and your child pisses you off - nurture is the only thing that works. The only time I feel I've ever really had nurture is when I met my husband, who is phenomenal at nurture. And he's taught me so much about giving nurture back. It's a very, very powerful creative thing to do.

And mean, I remember I phoned my mother in 1982 when I won Best Female Vocalist in what is now the Brit Awards (above). And she said, "well don't boast about, it will never happen again". And I ignored it ... and I explained what the award looks like. She says "don't fall on it - it will kill you. I mean, she did not have one good thing to say to me in 55 years.

CAT: Sounds a bit like jealousy though, to be honest ...

TOYAH: She had a similar background, I think something terrible happened to her when she was young. If she'd had therapy and could talk about it we would have got over it. But I am who I am because I have been in self-defence for so long.

I think that's made me feel a lot of empathy towards those I work with and towards my audience because I just realise how damaging negativity is and it's why I kind of don't engage personally on a daily level on social media as I've had so many years of just being pushed back all the time that my tolerance is non existent so I lose myself in my work and by bringing other people joy and that's my way of nurturing and it's hugely important to me. Hugely import.

CAT: Yeah, sounds lovely. Part of that nurturing of course is releasing material, isn't it that you know that is going to partly be your legacy, but it sounds to me like it's important that it moves somebody emotionally as well?

TOYAH: Yeah, I think I definitely agree. I think it's very important when you're writing to be truthful to yourself, but also to remember someone is going to be listening to it and I feel very responsible about that. When I've written my most intensely emotional stuff – a song on my album last year “In The Court Of The Crimson Queen” is called “Dance In The Hurricane”, which is about the loss of my parents.

And when that came out, the response was huge and I think it was just holding a mirror up and people seeing themselves. And there was recognition. So I think it's really important to write about things that help people recognise in themselves and it's taken me a long time to get there. A long time, which is why I'm pretty determined to keep writing.

CAT: And in your tour with Hazel are you going to be touching upon some of this kind of material? What's that going to look like when people actually come to see you?

TOYAH: I think my tour with Hazel is going be a non-stop party (they both laugh) Because of circumstance and everything. Hazel and I have a lot of hits and we both agree we’re doing the hits! But luckily my album last year was a hit so we will be doing “Dance In The Hurricane” and “Sensational” which was a single off it and other tracks. But I've had well over 14 Top 40 hits. They're gonna be in there and the same with Hazel.

So we've already rehearsed (below). I mean, obviously we're going to have to rehearse again. We didn't expect a 2 year break or whatever, so it will be our hits. Hazel wants to open because she works in a trio. And then my band will come on and work with her. There will be an interval, then I come on and that's nothing to do with star billing. It's just the way that the sonics work at the evening. And then Hazel and I do a set together and it's going to be absolutely wonderful. It it is going to be riotous.

CAT: It sounds amazing. I can't wait to see it actually, I have to say, you're sold out but you must put more dates on because people are going to be listening to this thinking I've got to go to that!

TOYAH: There will be tickets available because obviously we're rescheduling so everyone that's got tickets those tickets are valid, but if you can't make the date we're rescheduled to those tickets become available so it's all on my website toyahwilcox.com, two L's in Willcox. All the information and the updates are there. So if you want to come, look at the venue and see if they have availability. Because this is a very fluid experience. Everything is changing weekly so just keep informed.

CAT: Yeah, keep an eye there and in the meantime they can of course buy your DVD anthology for Toyah and The Humans, can't they?

TOYAH: On the 3rd of July Toyah and The Humans is a 3 CD box set that's also going to have accompanying vinyl coming out as well. This is my very experimental art rock band with Bill Rieflin, who was the drummer in REM. It's three albums that we made together. The first album is very stripped down. I wanted to do music that was completely stripped bare and then the second album “Sugar Rush” is really rocky and it’s phenomenal. And then the third album “Strange Tales” is melodic and beautiful. And so the whole 3 albums is a kind of harmonic journey.

Also out at the moment is Toyah "Solo” and that is albums that I have released since about 1985 and that is a beautiful package. So that is “Minx”, “Desire”, “Ophelia’s Shadow”, Take The Leap!, Velvet Lined Shell”. That's a real fan collector’s piece and also we've got “In The Court of The Crismon Queen”, so there's a lot going on. All those are on Demon, which is part of the BBC and then next year all my early albums come out. So it's kind of a huge year for me. We've got “Blue Meaning”, “Anthem”, “Sheep Farming In Barnet”, “Toyah! Toyah! Toyah!”, “The Changeling”. They’re all being re-released.

CAT: Wow, that's brilliant. And what a treat for everybody to actually be able to get their hands on those and they look amazing from what I’ve seen and also you're doing some vinyl as well, aren't you?

TOYAH: The vinyl is beautiful. Everything that I'm rereleasing is multi coloured and the vinyls are just gorgeous! Every colour in the spectrum. There's quite a lot of vinyl out there. “In The Court Of The Crimson Queen” has crimson vinyl. Toyah “Solo” each CD has a different colour of the CD. With The Humans you've got a beautiful deep egg yolk yellow. You've got a wonderful kind of chaki bright olive green and then you've got a wonderful purple colour for “Strange Tales”. It is just the most beautiful packaging.

CAT: I wouldn't expect anything less from you, Toyah. Let's be honest, you’re colourful in every single way. It's absolutely wonderful. So I think people need to go on your website and have a look at all that, because there's plenty to see. Plenty to watch and obviously with you on social media is very entertaining as well.

TOYAH: And there's also a lovely website which is a fan site. It’s an archive site called toyah.net and that's phenomenal. Davie, who runs that knows more about me than I do. He knows when I'm about to do TV before I know it ... He really is ahead of the game and I love that website. So you’ve got toyahwillcox.com and toyah.net if you really want to stay informed that's all you need see

CAT: It's all there for the taking, isn’t it? It's been a pleasure speaking to you, you’re an absolute sensation, let’s say it that way and I'm sure this is going to be a very very popular interview. So can't wait to see you when you're on tour again. I'll be there.

TOYAH: Thank you!

CAT: Have a lovely day and stay safe!

TOYAH: OK, bye for now!

CAT: Take care, bye bye!

You can listen to the interview here