TOYAH ON
RTÉ ARENA
WITH SEÁN ROCKS
23.5.2021

SEÁN: Tonight on Arena Toyah Willcox on lockdown lunches, dying her bright blue before it was fashionable and making films with Derek Jarman. To a generation of teenagers and beyond in the 1980’s Toyah Willcox was an inspiration.

With brightly dyed hair, dramatic make-up and songs like “ I Want To Be Free” being a call to arms. But before success in the music world she’s already made her stage debut at the National Theatre in London and her film debut with director Derek Jarman.

For four decades the work continues unabated, she’s just returned to the recording studio, new solo album “Posh Pop” due for release in July and a remastered edition of "The Blue Meaning", her studio album from 1980 comes out this month and I’m delighted to have Toyah Willcox join me on Arena

TOYAH: Hello!

SEÁN: Hi! How are you doing? Good to speak to you. I’m skipping over four decades there very quickly but I want to actually just talk initially about the last year. Tell all those who haven’t been initiated into "Toyah and Robert’s Sunday Lunches". Tell them what’s involved there

TOYAH: Well, it’s a massive success. We have traffic of 16.7 million viewing Toyah Youtube every month and we can not put our finger on why this has just gone viral. It’s basically Robert, my husband, and I in our kitchen – we’ve never changed that setting and the kitchen seems to be as much a star as we are. So it started off with a very simple dance video, a 30 second video exactly a year ago, which within one minute had reached 100 000 people and most of them seem to be in the Philippines

We were absolutely amazed by this so we started to regularly release videos at Sunday lunch at a time when we believed – and we still believe that we as musicians need an audience and an audience needs us

The idea was we just wanted to say to people who were good enough to watch that we are in this with you and it had a profound effect! I do admit to the audiences out there who haven’t seen Toyah & Robert that we push the boundaries and the bar out (Seán chuckles) more and more each week and I’m not sure we can push that boundary out any more

We’ve now reached an international rock audience to the point where we know that the drummer from Radiohead, Alice Cooper and various other iconic people are watching our videos and they are trending them and it’s just been fabulous to a point where we are now deciding that in a about two to three years time this will become our main career. My husband turns 75 any day now and I turn 63 and we’ve decided we’re going to build this as our kind of retirement career

SEÁN: Quite a plan. And we should point out that your husband isn’t any old Robert, he’s Robert Fripp of King Crimson, the guitarist, so we’re talking serious musical pedigree there as well 

TOYAH: Yeah. He’s in the Top 50 of world guitarists

SEÁN: He can play (both laugh) Let’s put it that way!

TOYAH: Yeah!

SEÁN: Let’s have a listen – I think this is actually – was it last Sunday, a very recent Sunday at any rate, where you took on – basically what yourself and Robert do in these videos – you take on songs I suppose, we all know and love and lots of them speak directly to your own aesthetic. This is “Firestarter” from The Prodigy (below)

TOYAH: OK. Let me explain. I perform these to two guitarists and I have no microphone and I have no in-ear (monitors). This is me purely responding in the room. It’s no even karaoke! (Seán chuckles) This is performance art!

SEÁN: That’s exactly what it is and I have to say you didn’t mention one of the stars of this particular video which is the copper pot hanging above your Aga. Let’s have a listen to how that all works (Toyah laughs) (Plays the song)

Now, if you haven’t seen the visuals wait until this interview is over and go and search them out (laughs) That is "Toyah and Robert Sunday Lunch", Toyah Willcox speaking with me this evening – and the copper pot in the midsts of these stars in that video as well with Jake, the other guitarist as you mentioned, Toyah

“I'm the trouble starter, punkin' instigator, I'm the fear addicted, a danger illustrated, I'm a firestarter, twisted firestarter” Did the Prodigy write the lyrics about you?

TOYAH: No! This is The Prodigy!

SEÁN: I know that! (laughs) But it sounds like you, doesn’t it?

TOYAH: Not today … (Seán laughs) I mean we did that as a tribute to Keith (Flint, who passed away in March 2019) who was a gorgeous gorgeous human being and we pick songs and we treat them as tributes to the original artists so you’re right that there is a little bit of me in that song but I think there’s a little bit of everyone in that song! 

 

 

SEÁN: Yeah! (laughs)

TOYAH: I mean where The Prodigy were absolutely phenomenal was they created a very special energy that the world followed and we wanted to pay tribute to Keith. I think part of the success of this particular video you’ve picked up on is the huge copper jam making pot that I use as the percussion and we think this is part of the success of "Toyah and Robert at Home" that we use kitchen implements in the videos and it’s slightly absurd

SEÁN: Yeah but it’s brilliantly absurd at the same time as well. I’m wondering how difficult it was to get Robert to join in … I went down the "Toyah & Robert Sunday Lunch" rabbit hole last night on Youtube as I was getting ready to speak with you and I had such a great time

Initially I wonder, particularly in the "Swan Lake" video where you’re in the garden in fact – was that the initial dance video you were talking about? He’s in the black tutu, you’re in a black tutu, going across the lawn?

TOYAH: The initial dance video was me teaching him to jive to “Rock Around The Clock” when I realised that this very brilliant guitarist, who plays very complicated time signatures, had no control of his body and he can not dance

So the tutu came about - it’s something I’ve always wanted to do. We live on the river Avon near Stratford and I have always wanted to do "Swan Lake" that way and I said to Robert “would you wear a tutu?” and he wasn’t happy about it but he trusts me and that particular video reached the world press

I mean we started to make headlines on front pages and newspapers from Italy to the USA with that one. At that point Robert wasn’t too happy to be seen across the world in a tutu like that but very quickly people realised that in a time of extreme danger and fear that one of the things the human race can turn to is humour and that was the turning point of our success

SEÁN: Yeah. I have to say though, Toyah, yes, they’re very humorous and there’s an absurdity to them but there’s also something incredibly creative about some of the ones I was watching last night and I’m thinking in particular of “You Really Got Me” The Kinks (below) The way you shot this! A film maker would be proud of it! Robert – (Toyah interrupts) Yeah, go ahead, explain the shot

 

 

 

TOYAH: By the way I have directed and filmed ten videos for my album “Posh Pop” so I know how to make really good short films. So I set this camera up – we live in a five floor property with a stairwell and I just thought – always thought – as soon as we moved into this property twenty years ago that that is a fabulous shot!

Robert was very very happy to do this shot when I set it up so I had to build a very easy scaffold rig to suspend the camera down the three stairwells we were shooting from. We removed all the furniture so that we could put Robert on his back looking up to the top camera, which was three floors up at this particular part of the house looking down on these beautiful mosaic tiles and Robert was playing The Kinks “You Really Got Me”

The thing about this video is he plays virtually every cord wrong. Robert plays in viola tuning which is five tones higher than guitar tuning so this was the beginning of Robert realising if he was going to have to learn classic rock he was going to have to go back to E tuning but that’s a technicality. I think most of your listeners will understand what I’ve just said

So I was trying to sing dressed as a little red demon running up and down the stairwell three floors to tuning I was not getting back off my master guitarist! (Seán laughs) It is a visual feast, it’s a beautiful looking film

SEÁN: Yeah, the tiles on the floor as we look from up above look absolutely amazing with Robert lying on them and it is a great shot

TOYAH: And I look amazing too!

SEÁN: Yes, you do look amazing in your red PVC suit that you’re wearing (Toyah cackles) Some of the costumes that you wear throughout the videos are to seen rather than to be spoken about, I shall put it that way (laughs)

TOYAH: Yeah and I would say this is for viewing for over 18 years of age. And I would like to day that I’m pushing out the boundaries that no matter what age you are we are still connected to rock’n’roll

SEÁN: For sure. And that brings me to that earlier part of your career which is – we’re talking about everything tonight that we want to talk about – but specifically about the remastered edition of "The Blue Meaning", your studio album from 1980. Now ironically it’s not just that album it has to said, it’s a massive big collection of music that you’ve given us

In fact it’s a two disc collection, there are extra songs in there, some that are from a deluxe edition that you released later on but there’s also one of your best hits which isn’t on the album itself, I know that, but it’s the one that a lot of listeners will recognise the minute they hear it. This is from the second disc that you’re re-releasing at the moment (plays the original version of “It’s A Mystery”) Oh that is so beautiful to hear in that original version which is part of the double set

I know that the real focus is "The Blue Meaning", the album itself but “It’s A Mystery”, that lyric in there “it’s a mystery to me, still searching for a clue” … It strikes me that part of that is still happening for you, Toyah Willcox, but not in any kind of way that makes you anxious, makes you excited in fact that you’re constantly searching

TOYAH: Yeah! I mean that was the very first demo of “It’s A Mystery” and it was done with a band called Blood Donor, the keyboard player had written that song. So that was a very avant-garde demo and we re-recorded it after the writer and myself turned it into a different arrangement and I wrote the second verse for the single and it became a much more of a commercial entity

But the meaning in the song for me is life is a journey and I was brought up that as soon as you left the school gates at 17 or 18 education stopped. Well, that’s just not true and as soon as you hit 30 you’re in old age, well, that’s just not true!

And I think that this song represents the fact that life is a journey and it’s always a rite of passage. We’re always learning new things, experiencing new things and life is an adventure. That I think is a very special meaning within “It’s A Mystery”

SEÁN: And also that period in time, I mentioned it in my introduction – you had already had success, you were on the stage of the National Theatre and you’d been in Derek Jarman’s “Jubilee” at that point in time -

TOYAH: I’d made “Quadrophenia” and I’d been in a movie with Katharine Hepburn -

 

SEÁN: Katharine Hepburn was actually – this brings us to a great story around your dyed hair. Everybody’s (saying) “that was the punk era – of course she had dyed hair!” but you had dyed hair much earlier than many others. I think you were in your very early teens that you first dyed your hair a bright blue or a bright pink

TOYAH: When I was 14 I was a hair model for a very famous UK department store so my hair started to be dyed when I was 14 and I got threatened to be chucked out of school. It was such a taboo thing to do that buses wouldn’t stop for me, people used to shout at me adding a lot of swear words to this “what are you?” and “bleep bleep clown!” It was an incredibly aggressive statement for a woman to have made in the mid-70’s

Today when I look out and I see women of all ages with pink, blue, green hair I think yes! This is why my generation did it! But back then you were seen as someone standing outside of society and it was taken as an aggressive statement

So I was a hair model, I adored having all these different colours and when I met Katharine Hepburn for the audition for Bessie Watty, a 13 year old (above) in a classic play called “The Corn Is Green” for a movie, I wore a wig, I wore my National Theatre wig, which was a beautiful brown wig

When I got the job I turned up for the play reading with Katharine Hepburn with my bright red hair and she fell in love with it and she said that is exactly who and what she was when she was a teenager in Barking in Hollywood. She adored it. She got it immediately

SEÁN: Yeah and in fact George Cukor, who was the director, had seen you in the wig and when he saw you with the bright pink hair the following day was going “huh? Who’s this person?!”

TOYAH: Well, you’ve got to remember this is the man that discovered Marilyn Monroe and James Dean. He also directed Judy Garland in “A Star Is Born” and suddenly he’s got this young 19 year old turning up with bright red hair. It was a complete leap of faith for him at that time

SEÁN: And I want to bring up Derek Jarman and that relationship. How did that relationship start first of all? Was it Ian Charleson, the actor, who introduced you to Jarman?

TOYAH: Yeah, Ian Charleson and I were at the National Theatre together in very different productions but Ian Charleson knew Derek Jarman and felt that Derek would love to meet me and that lead to us going to tea with Derek Jarman and Derek just literally handed me a script and said “pick the part you want” And Derek and me, we loved each other very very much. The bond was immediate and I went onto to do “The Tempest” (below) with him as well

SEÁN: I have a little clip from the dinner scene in “Jubilee”. Was your character in “Jubilee” simply called Mad? Mad with a capital M?

TOYAH: Yeah, that’s it. Mad the pyromaniac

SEÁN: Mad the pyromaniac. Fire starting seems to be our theme this evening, doesn’t it? Let’s have listen to this little dinner scene of Derek Jarman’s “Jubilee” (plays the clip) Does that bring back memories? It must do, Toyah?

TOYAH: I remember it vividly. I remember it was a part of a ten page scene that I was speaking for the whole of the time so I remember the technicality of it!

SEÁN: I’d say!

TOYAH: That the camera was trying to find me, I was trying find the camera. I do remember it. It was an incredibly happy time because it was my very first feature film and yes … It was such an opportunity and Derek Jarman trusted in me but very very embryonic in my performance and I still feel very embryonic as a film actress because film acting is about experience but I loved every minute of making this but it was extra special because it was my first movie

SEÁN: And Ian Charleson was at that dinner table and Adam Ant was there as well if I remember right -

TOYAH: Yeah, Adam Ant, Little Nell from the “Rocky Horror Picture Show” movie … It was absolutely an iconic cast

SEÁN: Yeah and all of that film experience and Derek Jarman’s aesthetic I think is there even in the Sunday Lunch videos that we were talking about earlier on and I guess it will be all over the new album “Posh Pop” given that you’ve said – you feel that the videos and songs are pretty much an item together rather than separate in the case of the upcoming album, yeah?

TOYAH: Yeah. Because “Posh Pop” was written in lockdown I created a pod with my co-writer Simon Darlow … We feel that this album is about humanity and it’s about humanity at a time where we were joined like no other time in our living history. “Posh Pop” is about joy, the need to dance, it’s about connection, love and loss

So this is why I’ve made the video album to go with this album. It’s one of the most special things that I have ever ever made. It is for me a very perfect album but what sounds like a pop album has the deepest messages I’ve ever written about 

 

SEÁN: To finish up then I want to go to "The Blue Meaning", the remastered edition that we’re celebrating with you this evening and that opening track “IEYA”. We get an eight minute thirty one second version of this song on the new album. That’s a short version in comparison to some of the rehearsals you had for it. Rehearsals almost in front of live audiences. Tell us about gigs where you basically tried this song out and the audience were there while you were working out new versions of it

TOYAH: Yeah, well, “IEYA” was written at soundchecks and we often so loved playing this, it has a kind of trance effect about it, that we would get through our entire set in an evening, in an hour and a half, we’d do five encores and the audience was still calling out for more so we were put in a situation that we wanted to play something new so we would develop “IEYA” live on stage in front of the audience

And you’re right, live this could go on for half an hour or more. So we developed the arrangement and the energy and the connection with the audience, actually in front of the live audience, and then went into the studio six months later to record it and I think that’s why this song is so special. It’s because we know exactly how the audience were going to behave when they heard certain parts of it. And even today it’s out encore number and the audience go absolutely bonkers

SEÁN: Toyah. Lovely to speak with you this evening. Thanks for being with us

TOYAH: Thank you so much Sean, it’s been a pleasure

You can listen to the interview HERE