TOYAH ON
ITV HTV WEST
RECOLLECTIONS
WITH MARY PARKINSON
OCTOBER 1987
MARY PARKINSON: Hello and welcome to “Recollections”. My guest today has among her keepsakes a Victorian toy, a pair of platform sole shoes and a lucky charm bracelet. Once hailed as the "thinking man's punk" she's the talented singer and actress Toyah Willcox
TOYAH: Hello!
MARY: Toyah, not many of my guests have brought their underwear along, so I'm sure there's a good story about that pair of red knickers
TOYAH: Well, I haven't brought them along out of any form of disrespect, but when I was making “The Ebony Tower” (1984), it was a great laughing matter that throughout the whole of the film I had to wear red underwear. I got on very well with the makeup department, two wonderful ladies who became very close friends
At the end of shoot party they both very coyly came up to me and said “we bought you a little present” and it was in a tiny little package. I unwrapped it and there they were! (Mary laughs) Far too small for me to wear because I have generous English measurements, but it's lovely because it's from a French Marks and Spencer's
MARY: In fact it's a memorable film because you worked with Sir Laurence Olivier (below with Toyah)
TOYAH: Very memorable, yeah
MARY: Do you remember the first time you ever met him?
TOYAH: Yes, I was in the Granada (TV) buildings. I passed the audition and it was the first read through. This very charming elderly gentleman came up to me and asked me where the gents (toilet) was
I suddenly realised it was him. So I guided him to the gents and then I went to find the rehearsal room. We officially met over the script, as it were, and he was charming. Absolutely wonderful
MARY: Were you quite nervous at the idea, though, of working with such a great actor? Did it worry you?
TOYAH: I think I was more nervous about working with the media of film. I'd just come off stage from doing a season with “Trafford Tanzi” about female wrestlers. I'd lost all my feminine grace and I was very very worried about working on film
On film your acting can be quite minute and on stage you're huge. I was more worried about coming down to that level. With Lord Olivier there was never any problems because he makes you instantly at ease. He's a born charmer
MARY: But nevertheless you actually had to strip. I mean most of the film you were sort of semi-naked. Did that worry you a bit?
TOYAH: Oh, it worried me totally. Because even though you're in character ego wise you're very aware of all the things that you feel insecure about. So yes, it was nerve-racking. But on the first day the director stripped too, which was so hysterical (Mary laughs) we asked him to put his clothes back on
When it came down to the big strip, Lord Olivier was great. He was very charming. He looked straight out when he talked to you. He talked to you sideways, and was full of discretion. But it's not something I'd like to make a career out of because I don't feel confident like that. And people remember you for that rather than for the quality of your work
MARY: You've been acting a long time. And in fact, some years ago, you acted with Katharine Hepburn - another great actress. What were your sort of lasting impressions of her?
TOYAH: I felt very safe with her. I had very bad knowledge of camera technique when I made “The Corn Is Green” (1979) She gave me lots of advice about performing to the camera but ignoring the camera at the same time, which is so valuable to a 19 year old - which I was then
MARY: So you were lucky actually to have that chance to do it. In fact, your next little item is to do with luck, because it's a lucky charm bracelet. What's the story behind that?
TOYAH: I find this a slightly melancholy story. I was with my mum (below with Toyah), I was about seven years old and she was going through the attic. She got out this suitcase full of clothes and in among the clothes was this little charm bracelet. It's silver. I don't know how old it is
She said it was hers, but I've suddenly realised that there's a Taurus symbol on it. I'm a Taurus, my brother's a Taurus. My mother's a Libra. So I don't know whether it's hers or her mother's or what because my mother has never talked about her family. I think she lost her family when she was quite young
So I said to mom “I love it”, because it was glittery and I didn't have any jewellery at all. She said I could have it. The most influential part of this is that it has a sphinx on it. I've always, from as far back as I can remember, been in love with Egypt and Egyptology. So it meant a lot to me
MARY: Your mother was rather mysterious about her family. Did that make her a rather remote figure for you?
TOYAH: In childhood we were very close. I wasn't a very well child. I was born with a few physical defects and I depended on my mother a lot. I had to literally learn how to walk, learn how to speak, and learn how to read. It was all very, very slow. I was always ill in the stomach. I couldn't digest food very well
So I was totally physically and emotionally dependent on my mother so we were very close. Then one day I woke up and I suddenly realised that there's a big world out there and I want to be a part of that world. I grew away from the family background
MARY: What about your father? Because you have a little Victorian toy there that reminds you of him
TOYAH: I love this. My father and my mother were very into antiques. I went into a junk shop with my father and found this. I must say I'm not sure whether I was with mum or dad when I found this, but I always relate this to my father
For me this sums up Christmas and the security of Christmas. The fire burning and all those safe feelings that a family gives you. I don't know what it is. I don't know where it comes from. It's a little bird on a stone
MARY: Was he very supportive with you during the difficult times?
TOYAH: He was a disciplinarian, but at the same time he was the most anarchic person I've ever known. High moral standards, but at the same time broke every rule that irritated me. When it came down to going to school and keeping those rules. Like indoor and outdoor shoes and changing knickers after gym, all that. My father wasn't interested in that. He was more interested in the worldly vision I had inside me of being part of the world
MARY: You've got couple more things from your childhood. The little tiny locket
TOYAH: This is the first thing I ever bought with my pocket money. It's a tiny gold locket. It was 12 and six (12 shillings and six pence) I saved up my pocket money I think for a year. Mum took me into the jewellers and I said “Oh, I want that”
It opens up and inside it I keep a little ball of fur from a rabbit I had. The rabbit was called Snowy and it was my best friend for two years. I didn't let anyone near this rabbit. In the morning I'd get up and he'd be in the garden. I'd call him and he'd come into the house, up the stairs and get in bed with me until mum chucked us out. I have a little picture of him. It's a terribly grubby transparency
MARY: This is the tiddly little Toyah. It's a very old little picture
TOYAH: It suffered many toffee sticky fingers
MARY: So you kept it all the way through
TOYAH: Snowy was such a friend and he was a relationship with an animal that some old women have with their dogs. It's something that you never let go of. He actually bit anyone that came near me. I was the only one that could go near him, (we were) very close
MARY: What about school then? I mean if you were sort of thinking, well, there's a big world out there. You were not very successful at school?
TOYAH: No. What I didn't like about school was the laws of femininity that were being put upon me. You had to learn to knit and had to learn to sew because one day you'll have babies. I never felt I'd have children and I never felt that I'd get married early. I always wanted to have a career. Because I wanted to act and sing I was thought of as a bit of a loser because these weren't careers. These were dreams
MARY: Were you a bit of a rebel? Were you naughty at school?
TOYAH: I was absolutely awful. I was dyslexic and very slow. At one point I was almost genius at mathematics, which is quite common in dyslexia, but by the time I was 11 that started to fade pretty quickly. No one could understand me. No one got on with me. It was purely my own fault. I disliked any petty rules, such as you can't go through that door or you have to go through that door
MARY: You were thrown out of the art class. Was that deliberate on your part?
TOYAH: I can show you why I thrown out the art class. I only wanted to draw gravestones or things like this. I had an absolute obsession with death, which I think is very much part of the growing up. This is one of my first drawings of my view of the world
It was a dome. I called it the dome. I carried on drawing science fiction type things - things that carried on into my my working life as a singer because I found it all very important for my image
MARY: You had difficulty - in fact you were dyslexic?
TOYAH: Yes. It made my mind very visual because I couldn't think in letters or numbers. I thought in images. So my mind was very creative on that level. In fact I've got a poem here that isn't part of the vocabulary I made up, but I used it on an album that became a platinum album ("Anthem", 1981) It's called “The Journey”, so I'll quickly read it to you. Can you bear it?
MARY: Yes, I can
TOYAH: I was 12 when I wrote this, and it goes
“We scan their skies with stardust eyes
and kiss their rainbow mind
So we jumped right down and played the
clown to their glittering kind
They clapped and cheered, it was mighty weird
but we have to go home
So we went back to the ship for our cosmic trip
right through their dome
On through the skies, we tell no lies, we were
all upon our own”
I had this obsession about aliens and being alien
MARY: That came in through your career afterwards?
TOYAH: Yes
MARY: Part of this sort of rebellion actually came out into your clothes, because you then started to wear outrageous clothes as well. We've got these extraordinary shoes. I mean I used to wear platform shoes but -
TOYAH: I think these are a work of art
MARY: What's the story behind these?
TOYAH: When I was 12 I started wearing platform shoes, much to the dismay of my family. I'm small. I'm 4"11 so when the platforms came in, it meant the world to me. Boys started looking at me. By the time I was 14 my tastes had become more exotic. These are made out of wood and leather, and they're studded. These were my best
(shoes)
MARY: Was it possible to wear them?!
TOYAH: Well, yes. It's an art form to wear a platform shoe. You have to have very strong ankles and very good balance. After two years I could dance and run in these
MARY: So you used to go out in those?
TOYAH: I used to go to the disco in them. I was the envy of the whole of Birmingham that I could wear these. Most of my girlfriends thought I was utterly mad and it was quite justified - they were very envious that I could actually get away with wearing these. They suited my personality. I danced all evening. I'd go to a disco from six till about midnight and not stop dancing and wear these at the same time
MARY: What did your parents think? I mean they sent you to this rather good school and so on
TOYAH: They were very dismayed. By that time I was quite weird. I was always wearing black. I started dying my hair secretly. I had a kind of blue black color, a pointed fringe, pointed sides, and a shaved head at the back so I looked like Dr Spock
(in "Star Trek")
By this time my mother, at one point - it was rumored - had a word with the Samaritans about me (Mary laughs). I was very, very insular. I'd lock myself in my room. I ate on my own. I cooked my own food and had to be left alone
MARY: Extraordinary. You were quite young in the 60's, so you weren't actually part of the people that were flashing around and enjoying the 60's but you were growing up. Were you aware of the 60's?
TOYAH: Oh, yes, because my sister (Nicola, below with Toyah) was eight years older than me. My brother was five years older than me. It was wonderful to witness my sister being a part of the 60's and my parents rebelling against the 60's. I was about nine just witnessing the mini skirts and the sexual revolution
My brother used to smuggle me into midnight movies in Worcester. We'd go at the weekends. 12 o'clock the cinemas would show late night movies - they were soft porn. I used to go with all his friends. They drove around in army Jeeps
So at two in the morning we'd come out of the cinema. I'd be drunk because alcohol would pass around quite freely. We'd go off, and we'd drive around the chalk pits at Breedon Hill in these Jeeps, having a wild time till the sun came up
MARY: So you didn't miss the 60's at all?
TOYAH: No. Then I'd go back to bed and mum would wake me up at 10 thinking I've been in all night - and I had a hangover
MARY: Who were your pop heroes then?
TOYAH: Marc Bolan was my first one. I think what I recognised in him was the visual aspect. Vision always meant a lot to me. The glitter teardrop he had, the corkscrew hair, the platforms he wore. The songs he wrote influenced me greatly. They were all about this planet called "Rarn"
MARY: How did you actually get into pop then yourself?
TOYAH: I was at the National Theater. I was 18 and I joined the National Theater Company for nine months and formed the band when I was there. Coming from Birmingham I was very naive. London terrified me. I knew nothing. But my naivety carried me through, because it gave me a braveness
I wasn't sensitive to bitchery and to people digging the dagger in your back, which is very commonplace when you're a newcomer in the industry. So I just plowed straight into a room and said, "oh, I heard you play guitar. Come and write with me." It was literally as simple as that
MARY: You brought with you a selection of your costumes. Did you know what you wanted and did you help design them?
TOYAH: It's interesting. My main designer was Melissa Caplan. I met her at a party. I didn't know who she was and she didn't know who I was. I said, “I'm looking for a type of costume that is made by hand, designed in the mind, but depicts childhood”, I suppose. She came up with this one (below). This is one of her first ones. I'll hold it against me
It's hand-painted cotton because cotton lasts. I was going on the road for years at the time and it had to last on stage with kids pulling it apart. This goes over a black dress. I view this as as a piece of jewellery because it is an accessory. It's based on the Egyptian theme again, all the serpents and the snakes and things. She also did this one, which I wore on stage. Again, this is hand-painted suede with gold studs. That's a jacket
MARY: Beautiful!
TOYAH: She was very good at that
MARY: You often get the feeling that stage clothes look great in the light, but don't bear looking at close up. That's absolutely gorgeous
TOYAH: Also they're one-offs, which is very important. Now, this one isn't Melissa Caplan. This is an Italian designer. It's hand signed. I'm not very into extravagance. These came from the simplicity of Melissa's mind - she's very intelligent. But it was for free
MARY: I understand, yes
TOYAH: She didn't charge hundreds of thousands of pounds to make them. She created them and enjoyed creating them. This was £500 pounds and I thought it was extortionate. It's a neck scarf and it is very beautiful
MARY: That is beautiful
TOYAH: So I treated myself to that. But I treasure Melissa's more than anything in the world because of the heart that they came from. I'll show this one next. This is a rubber dress. This came from a young designer I found in Hyper Hyper (at Kensington Market). It's latex rubber and you wear it like a glove. It's incredibly tight
It takes two people to zip you in, and you can't wear anything underneath. Once you put it on you polish it with Mr. Sheen (furniture polish) and it becomes very glass like - like black water and it reflects everything. The only problem is when you get hot you sweat and then it slides off - which happened to me in Germany two years ago, much to the joy of - (Mary laughs)
MARY: Would you wear that with the big boots?
TOYAH: Yes, these thigh boots. I've got lousy short legs so thigh boots are my saving grace. I wear those on stage most of the time. The heel's very important to me. I've learned how to run and dance in them, you know - the usual story
This one is one of my designs. I had this design (made) for (a concert at) Hammersmith Odeon. I call it the "Picasso print". I wanted something that when we opened on stage the spotlight could be on this - on me, and then the spotlight grew, and there we were (all) standing there. This is hand-painted cotton
MARY: So really it's a combination of the actual designs and the effect on stage and so on
TOYAH: I think image, fashion and music go hand in hand. Another piece I'd like to show you is this
MARY: It's like a baseball mask
TOYAH: It's based on the skeletal structure of a baseball helmet. I had a suit of armor made out of red perspex (below) with huge shoulders that I wore on (the "Rebel Run", 1983) video and on stage. This is a headdress. Because I was shooting the video so quickly the designer Simon had to have it cast in bronze because it's the only way he could get it to me overnight. So this is actually a bronze (piece). Then on the road later I had a replica made in chrome with the microphone in the jaw piece
MARY: When you're on stage and you're in your black shiny dress and your high heel shoes - it's a very sort of sexy, brash Queen of Punk (look) and all that. Do you feel very powerful when you're whipping that audience up into a frenzy?
TOYAH: These costumes are symbols of power. I think that there is a part of femininity that is very symbolic of power. It can go against you. There's a story when I played in Bath. I think it was 1979 and the National Front used to recruit at our gigs because my band was Jewish and it would send us into a kind of war with them
We whipped this Bath audience up into a frenzy. There was about 5000 people in this hall, and they were Sieg Heiling (doing the Nazi salute) at us. I couldn't get the band to carry on playing because they just didn't want to know. So my guitarist went in and was fighting away. I went in to save him. In the end the National Front gang disappeared and we carried on with the gig
Then we realised they'd gone off to get the rest of the National Front in the area who were by this time surrounding the building. The police had to come and get us out. We crawled out of the loo window. But that's the negative side of it all
MARY: Do you feel a bit responsible, though, for -
TOYAH: Oh, you have a huge responsibility. You are setting an example within your life to these people. You're doing something that they probably would desire to do too. You have to keep standards. You have to set an example. Undoubtedly
MARY: As you say there is another side to the fans - we've got some lovely things here that the fans have sent you. You have some rings -
TOYAH: These I wore all the time. I don't wear them so much now. These are a symbol to my fans of me - as well as the ankh, the Egyptian cross. Tiny thing I have there (shows her ankh earring). These are eye rings. They're made out of glass eyes set in silver. Most of my fans wear these. It's a standard uniform. I see this as the third eye. It's the all seeing eye. It's the eye of that sees creation and is creative
Some people say it sees evil and wards off evil. This is intriguing. This came in a hollow book from a princess in Saudi Arabia who bought all my albums, but because of the Saudi Arabian laws she wasn't allowed to tell anyone. It's a gold ring. I don't know what the stones are. They're blue and red. Very beautiful. She said (in her letter) “please don't write back to me because the palace would be annoyed”
I checked her out and it was genuine. She was a genuine princess. (This is a) little Toyah ring from a very loyal fan. Also, I'd like to tell you about this. The diamond in this (ring) was left for me at the stage door at the Mermaid Theatre by an anonymous man who said, “thank you for everything you've done for me. Your work has kept me going”
MARY: “Thank you very much, (signed) Anonymous Man”
TOYAH: It's a diamond so I had that made into a ring
MARY: (the next item) Now that's beautiful!
TOYAH: This is phenomenal. Made by a fan. I think it's based on copper and enamel (below). It's the beetle. I wonder what they call the beetles in Egyptology. Can't remember. But anyway it's Egyptian. I wear it very rarely because it is delicate and I treasure it. It's something I'll keep for the rest of my life because of the workmanship that's gone into this
MARY: Are you really touched by fans who really love you and send you presents? Does it worry you a bit?
TOYAH: At one point it upset me because I didn't feel I was being loyal to what they saw in me. I felt guilt actually, because I'm a private person. In private life I'm quiet. I'm not a rock and roller that goes to wild parties and things like that. I am very much into mythology and the right side of a cult, which is what this represents to me - purely as a hobby
MARY: You said that you're quiet now, but this is the new Toyah, isn't it? In fact there was a stage in your life when you ran away from what you were and that's when you met Robert (Fripp), your husband. What were you running away from? What did you want to get rid of?
TOYAH: I think basically the society I was born into. I don't really believe in class structures. I'd like to see everyone born with equal chances
MARY: Didn't you also want to run away from the lifestyle you were leading?
TOYAH: You mean within the pop world?
MARY: Yes. The pop world – you change your image a lot
TOYAH: Well, it was exhausting. Also you're always on a pedestal. There came a time where I just wanted to scream and be really angry and be foul to everyone. I felt I had no right to be like that. Also because people were seeing me being a little bit godlike when I felt like Joe Public (normal) all the time. It does mess you up in there (points to her head)
MARY: What is the new Toyah? What is it? What have we got now?
TOYAH: (laughs) Well, the new Toyah isn't that new because I still feel very connected with this (the costumes she's brought in). What I do feel at the moment is that it's not appropriate for me to be like this. In 1981 it was appropriate for me to be like that and a time will come when it will be appropriate for me to be like that again
MARY: Now you're enjoying marriage to Robert
TOYAH: Well, we don't see each other that often because of my work. I'm on stage every night in the West End. When I'm not on stage I tend to be working on music. But what I felt was wrong was that I was living this glamorous pop star life when I didn't know music well enough
So now I'm studying music. It's very boring, very academic but I'm studying singing, studying playing the piano and studying dress design. So when I get my band together again I will really know what I'm doing. I won't feel a victim of everyone around me
MARY: Toyah, we've enjoyed you very much indeed and we look forward to all these new things that are going to happen. Thank you very much for joining us today
TOYAH: Thank you
MARY: And thank you for watching. I hope you've enjoyed it. From us all here goodbye
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