TOYAH ON
MY 80s PLAYLIST
VIRGIN RADIO
WITH STEVE DENYER
5.5.2023

STEVE: We're going to start off with your first track. Bowie, “Ashes To Ashes”. Is this your favourite Bowie song? Why have you picked it?

TOYAH: It's a very powerful Bowie song for me. Bowie always punctuated the points in my life where I felt the carpet had been pulled from under my feet. The first time I heard “Life On Mars”, for instance, I was doing an audition with Phil Daniels for a play on BBC2. I sang “Life On Mars” at my first audition and got the part

With “Ashes To Ashes“ - I was already becoming a very cult, famous figure within the punk movement in 1980. I remember going away to write songs with my writing partner at that time, Joel Bogen (the guitarist of the Toyah band). We were just a bit lost. We'd been signed to a record label but we hadn't quite got the full band together

“Ashes To Ashes” came on the radio when we were in a cottage somewhere in Dorset, writing, and my whole life changed in that moment. Bowie did that for me whenever I felt lost or broken. Bowie put me back together and “Ashes To Ashes” is one of those songs

STEVE: I've always wanted to ask you about Derek Jarman. I heard that he kind of spotted you. As far as the movie “Jubilee” goes, which I've seen - it blew my teenage mind. But he said to you “I want you in this movie. I don't care who you play. I want you in here" Tell me how you met him? How it started out?

TOYAH: The actor Ian Charleson, (who was in “Chariots Of Fire”), we were both working at the National Theatre. Ian said to me "you've got to come and meet this director called Derek Jarman. He's making a movie about the punk movement and the royal family". I think the original name of the movie was going to be “Down With The Queen” and it became “Jubilee”

Derek and I and Ian had tea at his apartment. Derek's way of casting a movie was just extraordinary. He said, “look at the script. Pick your role. But you can't play "Amyl Nitrate" because that's Jordan”. Jordan, the iconic punk queen (below on the right) I picked “Mad”. I literally flipped through the script and went for the part with the most lines

But then a few weeks later Derek had to say to me that his budget had been cut, and he had to cut down the whole film to four characters. He instinctively realised that I was heartbroken that “Mad” was going to be cut from the script. Then a week later Derek phoned and said “I've given up my fee so that you can be in the film" and he put “Mad” back in

That is exactly who and what Derek was. Derek put people in a room and said “do whatever you want”. So if you can imagine, literally, where this building is that you and I talking in now, was one of the sets ... It was an old warehouse. John Mabry doing the sets. Kenny the drummer from Siouxsie and the Banshees was painting the walls

You had Adam Ant and myself, Little Nell, Jenny Runacre. We were all together just making this film happen in this kind of family atmosphere, with Derek Jarman giving us sandwiches to sustain us. And it worked. I actually believe that that film was 40 years too soon

Now, in today's climate, and with today's revolution of language, of history, of addressing the equality of everyone, and the equality of choice within everyone - Derek was there 42 years ago. Behaving like that, living like that and fighting for those rights. This film, as mad as it is, I think belongs today

 

STEVE: Yeah, amazing. Also these movies have gone down in cult status now. Blew my teenage mind watching that. I wasn't sure what I was watching, but I loved it and I'd never seen anything like it before

TOYAH: (There was) nothing like it. Very collage and very free thinking. As performers we're all bouncing off the walls with our energy. What I love today is so many young kids, and I'm talking about 16 - 17 year olds, are coming up to me saying “we're studying Derek Jarman. We want to make movies like that”

STEVE: Brilliant. What shall we pick next? What would you like?

TOYAH: I think Kate Bush because Kate, quite rightly, her catalogue from 1985, which is “Hounds Of Love” is just … It's announced today that she's getting a song writing nomination as a contemporary artist for the Ivor Novello Award. It was absolutely amazing when the “Hounds Of Love” came out. It was groundbreaking. It lifted Kate from the artist that everyone felt they knew with “Babooshka” and “Wuthering Heights”

It lifted her into the stratosphere of A-list writers, even in 1985. To have it come back the way it has, and she's being discovered now by a completely new audience, I think is the most perfect trajectory for a career anyone could have

STEVE: What do you think about the whole situation with a movie or a TV show picking up on a song from years ago, using it and suddenly ... (makes an explosion sound)

TOYAH: I personally would say the record industry as it is today, where we are reliant on download sales ... that doesn't necessarily pay our way. We're all completely reliant on what's called sinks and that is your back catalogue being discovered or even your present catalogue being placed in a movie, an advert or a TV series. We’re totally reliant on it

But I feel really, really optimistic that it opens up the world of music. Every genre, every timeframe. 80s, 70s, 60s, 90s, 2000. I mean, it's all possible now and it's all happening

STEVE: Did you know Kate? Do you know her? Have your paths crossed? Can you tell me something about her?

TOYAH: When Kate had Bertie and the world didn't know about her son, Kate would come to our house. I live on the River Avon and my father would take them out on his boat. They had privacy and could play. So we know the private Kate

STEVE: What is she like? Is she otherworldly?

TOYAH: She's incredibly bright and intelligent. Otherworldly, possibly, yes. But just a really beautiful human being. Kind. She loves other people. She loves interesting people. She's always interested in what you're doing and what you're up to

Always wants a lovely conversation. Kate never sits down and talks about Kate. Kate sits down and talks about you. Very like Derek Jarman. Just a really lovely soul who just wants to be plugged into creativity

STEVE: Amazing. How do you think she feels now after the year that she's had?

TOYAH: She thrilled

STEVE: You know? You’ve spoken to her?

TOYAH: Well, we got an email at Christmas and she said "my goodness, you wouldn't believe what's going on!" Kate's very private, and she loves the silence of her home life. She makes jam. She makes cakes. She loves being involved with Bertie’s social circle. I think it amazes her as someone, who tries to stay out of the limelight, that she's increasingly been thrown back into it

The most amazing conversation I had with her was backstage at “Before The Dawn” (Kate's concert residency at Hammersmith Apollo) in 2013. She'd just been invited to take the show to Broadway and she said "I just look forward to going home.” I love that!

STEVE: You’ve probably answered my next question. Would she go out on tour again off the back of this success?

TOYAH: I'm not answering that for her. That's her right

STEVE: Do you think she might do a couple of shows?

TOYAH: (shakes her head) That's for her to talk about. But what I will say is the most talented people in the world and I've worked with a lot of them - they're not actually terribly ambitious. My husband's Robert Fripp (below with Toyah in 1986). He's the most private, home based person I know. And Kate is very similar. Her values are with love and family, as well as creativity

STEVE: “Hounds Of Love” - what does it mean to you?

TOYAH: When I first heard "Hounds Of Love" I was on a plane going to meet my husband. He was about to propose to me and I was very vulnerable. I was in tears. I was leaving my old life to go to America. So “Hounds Of Love” to me is about the life I was about to enter into. Very broken time for me. I was leaving an old life to start a new life

STEVE: What's the next one we're going to go for?

TOYAH: Well, it's very linked to Kate Bush in many ways - it's Peter Gabriel. I'm going for “Sledgehammer”. His management called me in to listen to his album. I was blown away. I'm very flattered that they wanted my opinion on it. They played me “Sledgehammer” and I thought "this is fantastic!". I have loved Peter Gabriel ever since he went solo

And of course my husband produced him as a solo artist and played on “Here Comes The Flood” (1977,) I believe. So the links are all there. My husband was in the studio hen Peter and Kate did “Don't Give Up”. Peter did about 73 takes, I've been led to believe, and Kate got it right on the first take. My husband was in the studio and he was sitting there thinking “she's got it right. Just stop doing takes. She's got it right on the first take!”

STEVE: The pressure!

TOYAH: So I want to play Peter Gabriel because he inspires me. If ever I need to just open my mind up and feel really creative ... it's “Sledgehammer”. It’s “Us”, the album. Everything he does informs me of what I would like to do

STEVE: Can you remember hearing this track for the very first time because obviously now it's gone down in legendary status. How did it make you feel?

TOYAH: The first time I heard it I felt complete envy. Because this is such a complete song. The production, the vocal. The arrangement is so wonderful. I envy anyone who has that time and that focus to do it. Peter can scrap whole albums and start again but when he gets it right, my goodness, it's there for eternity

I then went to Switzerland to film a TV programme and I was in the Alps, in the snow, sitting on a balcony just looking out over the mountains. "Sledgehammer" was on a loop on my Walkman. I came away from that experience, just an hour listening to “Sledgehammer” and wrote an album called “Ophelia’s Shadow”, which was critically acclaimed in America

It's nothing to do with “Sledgehammer”, but the whole experience of Peter’s voice, his choices of how he sings words, like Bowie, how he'll deliver a line, his timing ... just unlocked me creatively. I just sat there, writing non-stop

My husband watches me do this when we watch TV. When I see Claes Bang, the actor, in a film or a drama ... they unlock me. I keep a pen and a pad next to me. My hand is just writing, writing, writing, writing. My husband says “how are you doing that? You're not even looking at the paper.” I just think certain people open a creative pathway. I never let those moments go and I can come away with 10 pages of ideas

STEVE: Of course we do need to quickly chat about the video to this track because it really is, even now, something special!

TOYAH: Groundbreaking

STEVE: He apparently sat under a sheet of glass for 16 hours in the knowledge that nobody would do that and never come close to doing it

TOYAH: This was at the time when stop frame technology was the only way to do it. There was no CGI at this time. There was no other way of doing it than animation and this is live animation. I just think he knew he was onto a good thing. He trusted the filmmakers

This is what's so beautiful about Peter’s career is that he will go off on really strange tangents that bring something back into the Zeitgeist and he creates Zeitgeist. And that's why he is who he is

STEVE: Brilliant. Which one are we going to go for next?

TOYAH: I would love to go for Marc Almond and “Tainted Love"

STEVE: I love it! Tell me about this

TOYAH: I'm touring all of this year with my husband, Robert Fripp. We’ve got Isle Of Wight, Cropedy Festival (above, Toyah at Cropedy in August 2022) and many many other festivals. And then we're touring in October, in homage to our social media hit “Sunday Lunch”

STEVE: What happened there? Tell me about that because that's exploded -

TOYAH: What we're doing for the tour is we'll have a big screen and the show will have an image and narration of looking back at the “Sunday Lunches”. But basically Robert and I are just doing an absolutely rocking tour. We're going out and doing rock music. It's a live music show

STEVE: Have you toured with him before?

TOYAH: Yes, with a band called Sunday All Over The World in 1988. But not since then. But we love working together. So people will come up, they will have a fantastic show. The show is 50% British writers, 50% English writers

11 of my songs are in the show but then we pepper the show with great rock. So we have Guns N' Roses, we have Marc Almond - which is why I want to play “Tainted Love”, because that's in our show. I cannot believe this came out as early as 1981 -

STEVE: That's amazing

TOYAH: Isn't it incredible?

STEVE: 43 years ago

TOYAH: When that intro begins you just need that first da da and the audience just go crazy! I've seen this. I work with Marc Almond all the time at the “Rewind” and “Let’s Rock” festivals and you just get that first da da and the whole audience is just dancing. Elated! I think that's the power of this production for Marc Almond

The video is sensational because it's the first time people wore this kind of lighting technology. So you have two dancers come in through a window and they've got a light suit on. Then they're dancing while there's the model lying in bed and Marc is projected -

STEVE: He’s a very attractive young man, if I may say so

TOYAH: Oh, he’s gorgeous! The video is just perfection and I think this song is what the 80s is about

STEVE: The album version is mixed into “Where Did Our Love Go”

TOYAH: Oh, is it? I probably have heard it

STEVE: It’s so good. And obviously this is a cover of a song by Gloria Jones. But everybody remembers this version

TOYAH: This is the definitive and artists have done it very brilliantly ever since. But Marc - his delivery is vocal. He is a torch singer. You can feel his pain in everything he does. He delivers a very beautiful pain

I think it's quite important within popular music that we recognise broken hearts. We recognise relationships that didn't last and all of that. He does it with a such a joyful song

STEVE: Which one should we go for next on your list? We could do all of these. Did it take you a long time to put this list together?

TOYAH: No, it didn't take a long time to put the list together because I think the 80s has so much to offer. I just don't think it's going to go away. These are storytelling songs. I’ve chosen INXS next, “Need You Tonight”, just because INXS by 1987 were able to strip the production back

It was about rhythm. It was about hitting the beat. And you had this gorgeous beautiful adonis on lead vocals, Michael Hutchence. There's such an innocence about what they do and yet he cannot help exude extreme sexuality

STEVE: What was it about him?

TOYAH: Perfect body. Perfect voice. He was flirtatious with the microphone and the camera. And of course the very famous story about Paula Yates at that time. It was the love story that everyone was intrigued by. Was it at that time or had they not met?

STEVE: The love thing with her started on “The Big Breakfast” in the 90s. So "Need You Tonight” … 10 years later they were dating and he passed away in 97' before she did

TOYAH: I interviewed her just before she passed away and she was actually in a very good place. Utterly beautiful. Just legendary beauty. Articulate. But she was in a good place She arrived with her friend Belinda, who protected her like a dragon, quite rightly

Paula was able to talk about everything. I was super impressed and fell in love with her like everyone did, who met her. But I think something was going on with Michael long before it was public, which is why I've picked up on it

STEVE: They were very very flirty on "The Big Breakfast". It was in bed, wasn’t it?

TOYAH: I think Michael couldn't believe how forward she was. But they were made for each other. You could see it. I think he's a beautiful man and (it's) a fantastic band. I've always felt protective of him ever since (he was) at the BRITS. He was presented with a prize and the person who presented it said "you're a has-been"

Fom that moment on I would fight a battle for Michael. I would fight to protect him because it was disgraceful that anyone, yet alone another artist, should abuse someone in front of such a big world audience like that. So I've always just felt really protective towards him

STEVE: What a loss. What a shame

TOYAH: A big loss!

STEVE: How sad. I watched the Paula Yates documentary recently

TOYAH: She was breathtaking

STEVE: But it's great to hear what you said because everybody said the same thing that she was in a really great place and that death, if you want to call it accidental or whatever - it wasn't meant to happen

TOYAH: Of course it wasn't meant to happen. Looking back at Peaches (Paula’s daughter with Bob Geldof) ... (her death) wasn't meant to happen. The DNA in this family is absolutely brilliant. What would Paula be doing now? She'd just be doing magnificent things. And she was in a great place at that time

STEVE: We've done the five songs but let's pick another one because I’m having a great time

TOYAH: I would love to pick Alice Cooper

STEVE: What I really want to ask you, Toyah ... you were there. It's amazing to talk to somebody who was there at the punk scene. You remember it first time round. Do you think there's a chance that we could revisit anything like that? Do you think the punk scene might come back again? Or is it done and dusted?

TOYAH: Oh no, it's not done and dusted. I do the Rebellion Festival (below, 2017), which is a punk festival and that audience is all ages. So obviously we original punks, because I'm about to turn 65 - we're of a certain age. But that audience is all age groups. I think what's beautiful about the punk philosophy is it policed itself. In the beginning it needed to be policed. There was a sidetracking into kind of the wrong image

STEVE: Was it really genuinely anarchic?

TOYAH: Yes, absolutely! I was at the National Theatre when I was 18. I think I punked the National Theatre! I was the first punk there and it did shock people even in an establishment like the National, which is a groundbreaking theatre. But what it did for me - I'm not a conventional physical type for a woman in music. I'm very, very small. I don't have beautiful long legs. I'm just powerful. I have a lot of energy and bravado

Punk allowed me into the music industry. People really resisted it. People resisted signing me. I probably was one of the last acts signed. I got signed to an independent label called Safari about 1978 and that was quite late to get signed. My sheer will and bravado pushed me into the front runners, as it were. And only last December (the album) “Anthem” (1981) was re-released and it charted again, went straight in at number 22

So I think because I haven't had physicality in my favour … Firstly I was gender neutral at the beginning of my career. I dressed gender neutral. I thought there was absolutely no point trying to win people over by being feminine. It just wasn't going to work
 

STEVE: Does that mean that you were non-binary? You didn't identify as being a she?

TOYAH: I didn’t want to be identified as a gender. It was nothing to do with he or she. I just felt that people were judging me when they were writing about me as not attractive as a woman. No one that they wanted to sleep with as a woman. I found that really insulting that I was being judged purely on being attractive and not really as an up-and-coming artist. So I just started to not go that way

STEVE: Did anyone ask any questions because it would seem that people were quite accepting of “you do you”?

TOYAH: People were genuinely fascinated that I had the guts to not play the game of being that cute little woman. I was very aggressive in how I moved through my career. Not violent, but strident. People were genuinely fascinated

My clothes designer was a woman called Melissa Caplan, who designed for Bananarama, Adam Ant, Steve Strange, and possibly Marc Almond at that time. Her remit was I want to be gender neutral. I am a human being not an agenda

STEVE: Tell me about Alice Cooper, and why you want this song?

TOYAH: “School's Out”. I love this song. And funnily enough, my husband loves this song. We covered it in our “Sunday Lunch” social media. Oh no, it's “Poison”!

STEVE: Just explain what “Sunday Lunch” is just in case people haven't seen it or don't know what it is

TOYAH: It’s on the Toyah You Tube channel and every Sunday at 12 noon we post 90 seconds of performance from Toyah and Robert. In the lockdown years this was huge around the world. It's still huge now!

STEVE: Is that when it started? During the pandemic?

TOYAH: Yes. We did it because we posted one film of us dancing, April the 19th 2020 and we instantly got replies from around the world. From New Zealand, from Bali, from Hong Kong. So we continued to do it every Sunday. We've had 111 million visits

STEVE: Wow, that's impressive

TOYAH: We're now having a documentary made about us, which is filming for the next 12 months, following us on on our tours

STEVE: You do this track? You do “Poison”?

TOYAH: On the tour we're going to do “School’s Out”. We did this track on "Sunday Lunch" and Alice Cooper was sent it. He was played it live on his broadcast. His band said “you need to see this.” We were made to watch him watching it live

He was like, “Oh, what is this?” I sent a message to him ... “I'm really sorry about this, Alice, but you do not know what you mean to me. As a teenager in the early 70s and today. You've proven to me that you can just go through life being strong, doing what you believe in

STEVE: What did he say back?

TOYAH: He was so gracious

STEVE: Is he lovely?

TOYAH: He laughed his head off at the “Sunday Lunch” because I was dressed as a nurse and I think he was really embarrassed by it. But he was really lovely

STEVE: An absolute pleasure. Toyah Willcox. Lots of love

TOYAH: Thank you. Lots of love and see you on the road

STEVE: See you there. Maybe at Glastonbury, maybe not. We don't know. It could happen … I'm getting a look (they both burst out laughing)

Watch the interview HERE