TOYAH ON
CONVERSATIONS
WITH MARK CURRY
13.8.2020
CONVERSATIONS
WITH MARK CURRY
13.8.2020
TOYAH: Hello! It's so good to see you! I'm trying not to shout because I’m so excited just see you in the flesh.
MARK: I’m excited to see you too. It looks fabulous. Whereabouts are you in your house? That's a gorgeous room.
TOYAH: This is my office and my studio. So my microphones are here. My keyboards, my guitars, very basic recording equipment because most of the time when we record I just Zoom it down the line. Say to New York. I've just finished with New York 5:00 o'clock this morning. So this is a very precious room to me and I don't know if you can see (behind her) but I collect very large crystals. All my shelves have really rare crystals on. I love all that.
MARK: Hang on two seconds because I’ve got something to show you. Keep talking.
TOYAH: I’ll keep talking. My name is Toyah Willcox and for my breakfast I had two boiled eggs and I’ve been up quite a long time dealing with wonderful people in New York!
MARK: You bought me this (holds up a big crystal)
TOYAH: Did I?!
MARK: Do you remember? We were doing panto in Richmond.
TOYAH: Oh my goodness!
MARK: I’ve had it all this time and I love it
TOYAH: Isn’t it beautiful?! Oh, I'm so glad you've still got it.
MARK: Listen. Looking at the website yesterday, which I did, I looked at “Sensational”. That's a terrific video. The song, you look wonderful. This is the latest?
TOYAH: Yeah, well, it came out April of last year and went straight into the charts. My latest album “In The Court Of The Crimson Queen charted everywhere. Which is absolutely lovely and really divine. So “Sensational” has the video that kind of carries the song and everything, and that's what I was working on this morning because musicians around the world have recorded their version of “Sensational”.
We're coming together this Saturday to premier musicians in Nashville, New York, myself, and we've done it and re-titled it “World In Transition (May Every Child Live A Fulfilled Life)”. So it's all about that positive message that we are all, as individuals, miraculous. None of us should ever be part of the class system or a wealth system. The fact that we're here is a miracle. So we are all utterly miraculous.
MARK: And we are all unique. And there’s nobody more unique than you
TOYAH: Well, thank you!
MARK: And you always have been. So you’re home at the moment. Robert’s there? Robert Fripp, your husband? (above with Toyah)
TOYAH: Yeah, he is
MARK: Has that been OK? Is this actually the longest time been together in the house?
TOYAH: (laughs) There’s a lot of questions there, Mark, that need a lot of detail! Funny enough, the press has always treated me as at home wife and it's completely the opposite. I am the free spirit and lockdown has been quite hard for me because I don't like routine. So you ask, how has it been? It's actually been a phenomenal experience for both of us because I don't think we've been together for so long and we've been married for 34 years. So he's supposed to be on a world tour now, playing arenas in America. He's loving being at home, loving it to the point where he’s not sure how easy he'll find touring again. At the moment he's locked away writing a book.
For me? I'm very energetic, very physical. I'm used to doing 4 live shows every week throughout the year. And cooking is not my favourite thing, and luckily we have a great garden. So I find it very, very hard indeed. I've written eight children's books. I'm just doing a solo album. I've taken up boxing (shows her arm muscles) just to try and get rid of the energy. And I've been very honest with Robert when I've been a ratbag because I associate being in the kitchen with being out of work and you must know this, Mark. It's an actor's disease.
MARK: Yeah. It is. I’ve said this before - the most difficult thing at the moment is you know the phone isn't going to ring for a job. Well, it might be a bit different for you in the music world because there's stuff going on -
TOYAH: It’s been crazy!
MARK: Every day I think oh, something might come in today. An offer, or an audition or meeting or whatever. It’s just blank! It’s really hard to adjust
TOYAH: You must have had this as well . . . I have been rescheduling rescheduling rescheduling so a month ago I was supposed to be doing a major tour in major venues with Hazel O'Connor. And we moved it to September. And then we had to move it to May next year. And this has been going on every week. We just had to move everything along because we just don't know what's going to be allowed as far as live audiences being together in an enclosed space.
And personally, I think that cannot happen til this time next year. Because I do believe there's going to be a second wave and then we’ll learn more from that than anything up til now. So I've never been busier, I get about 100 emails a day saying “now you're not doing anything - will you do this?”
MARK: Like this? (the interview)
TOYAH: No, it’s fine, you’re such a longtime friend. So it's been very busy. Lots of things to do with geeing people up like reading stories for children. Recording lots of internet music for internet festivals. So it's been wonderfully busy and very interactive. But it's just been at the same address.
MARK: And using up all that energy. You’ve got energy – people say to me I’m energetic but you are just tireless. Were you always like that? Looking back as a kid? Did you always have this incredible energy?
TOYAH: It is very good question, Mark. I think I'm naturally lazy. I am a very typical Taurean and and I think this energy is part of me not wanting to waste time and waste my life. I think I'm the one that's sticking the pins in my backside because I could very easily do nothing and I don't like that in anybody including myself. So the energy is, I think a part of us. It's partly because I never really learnt much technique in anything and I'm very much an instinctive performer who then uses her instincts, but then steps back to discover the technique of making it palatable. Does that make sense?
MARK: Absolutely
TOYAH: So with Shakespeare, I know what I want to do. I want to be wild and I want to do this and then I learn the lines and then I kind of glean the technique. So I kind of work backwards into technique. Whereas you’ve got some brilliant people who are pure technique, especially American actors. So I think the energy is partly me bluffing my way through everything.
MARK: And looking back on that childhood - because your mother was a dancer, wasn't she?
TOYAH: My mother was remarkable because I think she was orphaned very early on. And she went to ballet school near Marlow at the age of 12 and she was already performing professionally on stage in vaudeville at 12. One of the paper cuttings I have of her is a review of her calling her a "future star" and she's 12 years old on stage. So she toured from 12 to 19 when she got married and I think by that point she was desperate for stability.
She was looked after by a matron who travelled everywhere with her, a chaperone. She got married and had children, and I think it's the worst thing she could have done as she was like me. I mean, we were just completely off the wall with each other. We didn't get on and she wanted to be on stage. She did a screen test for “National Velvet” with Elizabeth Taylor, so I think she always felt she missed the boat.
MARK: So how was she then when you said "I really want to perform. This is what I want to do". Was she supportive or not?
TOYAH: It was a yes and no to answer that question. They knew they couldn't stop me. They were terrified of me suffering disappointment. And then they never wanted me to fall victim to anyone, so they were very negative about anything. And in retrospect, I feel that that continual negativity - there was no nurture at all. The continual negativity was preparing me to fail and I do have this kind of strange background, but I was born with one leg quite a lot longer than the other, which I've now had corrected. I was always in physio, always having surgery.
An example was I was learning to be a professional ice skater right up until I was 11 years old. I would train 4 hours a day at Solihull Ice rink with John Curry just eight feet away from me. And I learnt to ice skate. I learned ballet, I learned everything with this anomaly in my legs and then I started to have corrective surgery at 11 and I could no longer skate and it broke my heart. I think when I said I was going to be an actor, they wanted to prepare me for a failure knowing that this was going to be an ongoing story of my life. It hasn't, I've got through every barrier, I’ve broken every boundary. I’m supposed to be in a wheelchair and I'm not. I'm really really fit so they just thought I was not going to have the active life that I have had.
MARK: And with all that going on as a kid . . . did that affect you at school? How did you do academically?
TOYAH: It's really interesting, Mark, because children I don’t think are aware physically of themselves. So you asked if that affected me? No. I had no idea that I couldn't read, that I was hysterical to people when I walked because I had a really bad limp. I had no idea until people sat me down and told me why was I not offended by this. And then you become aware of yourself and then you become defensive. So I had no idea, and of course the lisp, everything.
As I became more aware of what it was that people found comical about me - and my nickname was "Hopalong" - was that I was going to work on it. So I worked on it and worked on it, I ironed it out. I studied ballet, standard dance. I paid for my own dancing class, my own tuition classes. I got a job, I think, a Lewis department store in Birmingham every Saturday to pay for me to go to dance class, to have elocution lessons, singing lessons. I ironed these things out of me. But what I've never been able to iron out of myself is my quirkiness. And I just accept that.
MARK: And of course that's such a great part of who you are.
TOYAH: Well, thank you. I think it freaks people out! (laughs)
MARK: No, but it’s that spirit as well which has always been there. You went to drama school in Birmingham?
TOYAH: Yeah, that’s right
MARK: How long were you there?
TOYAH: Well, this completes your last question. A very good family friend was a man called Jack Johnson, who was the controller of BBC Pebble Mill in Birmingham. And he said to my parents "if you don't get this girl in drama school, she is losing every opportunity for the future". He just realised that I was not going to fit into the regular system. Put me in drama school. So he nominated me for Birmingham Drama School when I was 14 and I started going there weekends, so this is where I paid my way to study everything physical you need to know in drama. And I never looked back.
When I was 17, I went full time for a year, I couldn't pay the fee because I didn't get a grant. I was the only person in that drama school who didn't get the grant. And when I took my audition I saw the examiner write down “She's not attractive. She lisps and has a limp”. I mean that would not happen today. It would not happen. So I paid my way through drama school, but the wonderful, wonderful head of the drama school was called Mary Richards. She was part of the greats like Laurence Olivier and she ran the Birmingham Rep Theatre and then theatre school and when I was there she was in her 90’s. And she said (does a “luvvie” voice) “Ducky! Ducky! Don't worry about the bill. Pay me when you're a star!” Well, within a year I was at the National Theatre. And I sent her the £100 I owned her and if it wasn't for her, I don't know how I would have got through.
MARK: You know, it's amazing because everybody I've spoken to in these interviews - they nearly all mentioned one person. It's one person. It’s usually one person who said "go for it" and one person who said "you're no good". You remember those people.
TOYAH: And other people, which you will really identify with, Mark. To earn my money in the evenings I was a dresser at the Alexander Theatre in Birmingham and the Hippodrome in Birmingham. I addressed the whole of “Dad's Army”. Fell completely in love with Ian Lavender and John Le Mesurier. Oh my God! I could have married them both! And I also dressed Judy Geeson, Sylvia Syms, Simon Williams. They were absolutely gorgeous human beings, who realised I had no money. They bought me food. They taught me about the industry, they taught me about the wings of the stage and timing, entrances, and I never let them down. I gave them 100% and ah! That's probably one of those happiest times of my life in theatre.
MARK: And was it whilst you were a dresser that somebody came along? He was casting a BBC play and he couldn't find the right actress. Was it “Glitter”?
TOYAH: It was “Glitter” and the director was part of a team. They were the Bicat brothers. Tony and Nick Bicat. One was a music writer, the other was a script writer and they had a programme, 1/2 hour programme on BBC Two called “Second City Firsts” and they just could not find the character of a girl who breaks into the Top Of The Pops studios to sing. They asked Pebble Mill and they said “we cannot find anyone who isn't over trained. We’re looking for a rough diamond” and they said “oh, we know the girl! She does extra work for us and she is utterly bizarre. She's got green and yellow hair, and she's at the Birmingham Old Rep Theatre School”.
So they came along to see me and Mary Richards, the proprietor said "you got to see everyone. I'm not telling Toyah you’re here to see her". And then the following week they said could I go to London? I think they needed to get me out of the clutches of Mary Richards and I suddenly found myself at the Wigmore Halls in a room with Phil Daniels of “Quadrophenia” and Phil and I performed “Is There Life On Mars” together and I got the part.
MARK: Again, somebody coming along, the right person coming along, saying yes, I want her
TOYAH: The beginning of my career was all like that
MARK: When did you start experimenting with the hair? Did that go back to childhood? Trying to be individual, breaking out a bit?
TOYAH: Not childhood because I had a very conventional upbringing in a very conventional education. So my mother, my poor mother, opened the floodgates when she took me to Rackhams department store in Birmingham to have my hair cut. I had beautiful chestnut hair. It gleamed but it grew about half an inch a week. I mean it needed cutting all the time. And I met this wonderful hairdresser called Derek Goddard, who is still my best friend. And now my neighbour here. And he cut my hair in a “page boy”, you know . . . “Purdy” - Joanna Lumley. That wonderful shape. He said “your hair is so amazing, would you become my model?” and I was 14. And the next week he dyed my hair blue. And I had to go home with a headscarf on.
And then at school I wore the headscarf and eventually after two days my mother pulled the headscarf off and went aaarrrgghhh! (they both laugh) I had to dye it back and every now and then Derek would just sneak in in the underlayers green, yellow, pink and I was a hair model. I travelled with Derek all over the UK doing modelling shows for Wella and I don't think anyone realised that was underage.
MARK: You have got amazing hair. I've always noticed that. It's just amazing!
TOYAH: It’s completely white now.
MARK: Well, it looks fabulous. So “Giltter” the BBC play we’re talking about? What kind of doors did that open for you?
TOYAH: Oh my goodness! It was me, Phil Daniels, I sang two songs on it which I co-wrote with a band called Bilbo Baggins, who were really kind to me. Noel Edmonds was in it playing himself. So I do that. I was so happy, so happy. And as you remember, Pebble Mill was like a family. It was just the most wonderful place to be. So three months later, Mary Richards at the theatre school gets a call from the National Theatre saying “could Toyah come down tomorrow and meet Maximilian Schell, the German film superstar?” who was directing "Tales From The Vienna Woods", translated by Christopher Hampton, starring Kate Nelligan.
So this came about because Kate Nelligan and Maximilian we're having a takeaway watching TV when they came across “Glitter” on BBC2 and saw me. So I go down the next day. Audition for them, get the part and they say “we'll see you tomorrow” and I thought OK, well, I’ll just pop back to Birmingham, see my mum. Get some sandwiches. Go back in the morning and I had nowhere to live! It didn’t occur to me. I was so uneducated about the outside world. So I turned up for the first day rehearsal and (it was a) lovely cast. Brenda Blethyn. Kate Nelligan. Warren Clarke. Elixabeth Spriggs. So gorgeous. Brenda Blethyn came up to me (and said) “Toyah, where you staying?” I said “I don’t know”. She said “come and sleep on my couch for the week”. I thought I don't want to sleep on anyone's couch. So Kate Nelligan said, “oh, I got a granny flat in my house in Stockwell. You can have it for the whole run”
MARK: Perfect
TOYAH: Talk about landing on your feet. I didn’t have to do anything! I moan a lot that school does not prepare you for life. And I went out - I knew nothing about accounts. Nothing about tax. I just knew nothing. I didn’t even know how to get an electricity company and a phone bill. I had to learn all this while moving to London. I was so lucky.
MARK: There you were at the National Theatre at that time. What was that like? Because at the National I know that you're doing your production, but you've got dressing rooms full of actors doing other productions, but you're kind of altogether?
TOYAH: Yeah you’re altogether. It's a community.
MARK: John Gielgud was there at that time?
TOYAH: Gielgud was doing "Volpone". Ian Charleson was either doing “Salome” with Steven Burkett, or he was in "Volpone". I can't remember. Oliver Cotton was there. It was a village of superstars and it was also a very complex building backstage. It had only been open a couple of years and Peter Hall had just taken over from Laurence Olivier. We would quite often find actresses completely lost. One of the stars of my play “Tales From The Vienna Woods” was 92 year old Maddie Thomas, who we were always having to go off and find and bring her to the stage. Another actress just didn't make it to the stage at all one evening and she got locked in the ladies so it was that kind of building at the time. There was no markings on the floor to help you find your way out. It's like a maze.
I absolutely adored it. I was running amok 24 hours a day with Albert Finney. And they had a bar. Once Albert and me were in the bar it was all mayhem. I remember once, a wonderful actor I did my scenes with called Pip Williams, God bless him - I wrote something on his forehead in a marker pen and he passed out in the bar. Didn't come round til the morning and by the matinee he still couldn't get the marker pen off his forehead (Mark laughs) I won't tell you what I wrote. I was permanently in trouble. So John Gielgud called me “the ape”. He said “this isn't a zoo. You are not a monkey”.
MARK: Because you were leaping around and swinging about, just full of energy!
TOYAH: I was there effing and blinding, I was screaming everywhere. We found wheelchairs. All the girls were sharing a dressing room. We were always naked. We were just zooming around the corridors having races and we were just full of lust for life . . . But we had discipline on stage. Discipline in the rehearsals, but in those dressing rooms, which were a bit grey and prison like, we were just bouncing off the walls.
MARK: Was it about this time that Derek Jarman discovered you?
TOYAH: Ian Charleson, who was in “Chariots Of Fire” took me to meet Derek. He said “I think we really need to meet Derek. I think he's the kind of person you need to be with”. And I think that was very liberal and generous of Ian Charleson. So went along to meet Derek. Ian came with me, we had tea. And it was Derek's apartment on Radcliffe Gardens. And we go in there and literally it was full of naked men. And I'd never seen a naked man before and I was just really confused by this and there were no women there. I was the only woman.
And Derek handed me a script, which at that time was called “Down With The Queen” and he said “I’m making this movie. It’s about the end of the royal family and it's about a gang of punk rock girls. Pick a part.” I mean this is literally 2 minutes within meeting him and he trusted that because I was at the National Theatre I could do this. I'd never made a movie. So I flicked through the script and I picked a part with the most lines and it happens to be “Mad” the pyromaniac. And I thought yeah, I can play that and I got the job. But I was still absolutely baffled why everyone was naked in there and they were very beautiful young men
MARK: Were they all “auditioning”, maybe? (they both laugh)
TOYAH: Well, I mean the thing was Derek had a very beautiful partner at the time called Yves who was a Parisian boy. And Yves was very languid. He moved like a cat and he just would come in and out and he was like a ballet dancer. I don't think I ever saw him - in the whole time I knew Derek - never saw him in clothes. He just didn't like wearing clothes. Absolutely no self consciousness whatsoever. But a wonderful wonderful person.
MARK: I know you've been quoted as saying that he had such a big influence on your career and on your life, but you just admired him, you liked his - again, that unique quality you identified with him really?
TOYAH: Yeah, he was an artist 24 hours a day. He's taught me more as a friend and as a creative than anyone I've ever known since. And what I mean by this absolutely everything was going on in his warehouse apartment on Butler's Wharf by Tower Bridge 24 hours a day. Derek was never sitting back glorifying himself, so if I arrived at 9:00 in the morning for the shoot he was already working on a painting or a design for a stage set, and then we put the makeup on and we went off and shot the movie. Then in the evening he was already designing something else.
His whole life was about the continual engagement with creativity. It wasn't monetary. It wasn't corporate. It wasn't commercialism. He was living as a creative. And for me, that was the lesson learnt because if we all were allowed to live creatively, I think life would be much more rewarding continuously and we would learn about ourselves more.
MARK: He left this life too early and he left this business too early. And of course the film you're talking about then became “Jubilee”.
TOYAH: Yeah, I made “Jubilee”. “Down With The Queen” became Jubilee. Then I went on to do “Tempest” with him. Shakespeare's “Tempest”, where I played “Miranda”, which I got Best Actress Newcomer nominations for. I think it's a fabulous film. It's one of the best things I have ever been in. And I think today young generations are discovering Derek and really valuing him as a film maker because that man painted when he made a movie, he was creating a painting. He was inseparable from Tilda Swinton, so he kind was the launching pad for Tilda’s career as well. And Dexter Fletcher.
MARK: Yeah. What a great actor Dexter Fletcher is. Was there music happening at the same time? Did you have the band then?
TOYAH: I formed the band when I joined the National Theatre. When I joined the National Theatre I as 18 and it was very late in 1976 and I immediately started forming the band and doing punk rock gigs. The band went through many forms until I had my first commercial hit with “It’s A Mystery”. That period from 76’ to 81’ - I'd already topped the charts with three albums. I topped the independent charts – well, I was number one every week consecutively for two years, but no one took any notice of those particular charts. It was only the nationwide charts where people said “wow! You’re a star!”
MARK: How did you juggle the two careers? Because they are so different. You have that success with the music, so you are having to promote all that, travel with that, perform all that and then you've got the acting side of you that wants to go and perform. How did you -
TOYAH: My acting agent was tearing her hair out because she wanted me to give the music up. I felt that as Toyah I had to do it or I would see my mother's life in myself. So I never suppressed any of my desires or my ambitions. And Libby Glen, wonderful agent - the best agent in the world - she would follow me on tour, begging me to stop and she said that “the RSC (Royal Shakespeare Company) want you. You can't do this if you go to the RSC” and I thought, well, I'm not sure I want to be at the RSC at this point in time. Now? God! yeah, drop of a pin!
But back then I wanted to sing. So I did pay the price and there were many occasions where I missed concerts because I was stuck on a film set. When I was doing “The Corn Is Green” with Katharine Hepburn in Wales I couldn't get back for a show in London. Both my music manager and my acting agent were at odds with each other. They would not schedule around the other so I became piggy in the middle with that one.
MARK: You mentioned Katharine Hepburn, and so I have got to say what was it like working with and meeting Katharine Hepburn?
TOYAH: Well, apart from being a legend, Mark, she was a great human being. And so was George Cukor, who directed. They were wonderful, wonderful people who shared their greatness with all of us. They were generous. They were kind, they didn't gossip. They weren’t unkind. And I've met very few unkind people and as you know, the ones you meet - you remember. So Katharine was glorious, generous, gregarious. George was very serious, but very, very informative as a director. Very willing to teach and guide.
And Katharine . . . my goodness! I think she saw me and the movement of punk rock, who and what she was as an individual in Hollywood - as a survivor of the Hollywood system because she must have seen awful things. Basically Hollywood started off not only with the gold rush and then the oil rush and then with Ford Motor cars it became a very convenient way of getting pornography into the world. And women have always had to fight for their Independence. And in a way their personal safety. And I think Katharine had been right through the mill and was a strong feminist and when she met me, she saw me in the same world and I think we adored each other. It was mutual.
MARK: She was an individual. She would have seen your individuality as well.
TOYAH: Yes, I loved working with her and she told me so many beautiful stories about Spencer Tracy. And about how she - every day, even on “Corn Is Green” which we made in 79’, she came to work wearing his jumpers. And she grabbed and she smelled them and went (does an American accent) “I can still smell Spencer!” Such a great woman.
MARK: It was about 1982. 81’- 82’. I was presenting a Saturday morning telly show from Manchester and you were a guest. I think you'd done a film. You’d done a ballooning film or something, and then you were coming up to perform and be a guest.
TOYAH: What year was this? (confused)
MARK: That was 81’ or 82’ - something like that. And I remember being a little bit bit worried because I associated the new wave, the punk world, whatever you want to call it, I associated it a little bit with aggression. I didn't really understand the music. I couldn't identify with those performers, I was loving Shakatak. So you were coming on, I was thinking what is she going to be like? Is she going to be a bit aggressive? I was bowled over. You weren’t any of those things. The energy, kindness, the enthusiasm that came through. But do you think that did happen? Do you think people associated you with that slightly aggressive role?
TOYAH: Yeah, I mean punks - people were terrified of punks and it got to the point about 1979 where I really wanted to not look like a punk anymore because people were so scared me. I think punk evolved into a movement that actually wanted to embrace people. So yes, 75’, 76’, 77’ there was this aggression and we all did it because we were trying to change the world in a way the world is changing today.
And we wanted to shout down racism, sexism, homophobia. We wanted to shout it down and we did that through aggression but then we realised as a community, as a natural progression that we’d get more done if we were seen as intelligent human beings that were approachable. So I think part of the New Romantics and the new wave evolved into a kinder movement. I just got so fed up and so hurt of seeing in people's eyes they were scared of me. I made every effort not to be that person.
MARK: The lesson is don't judge, never judge. Wait until you meet this person, they may be completely different. Who were your musical heroes then? You were in that world - the new wave world but what stuff did you like and listened to?
TOYAH: Well, I mean if I had to choose five artists who I could only ever hear again for the rest of my life - David Bowie would be top of the list. Early Roxy Music, second on the list. Who else? Lou Reed. I would go for Muse. I love Muse! And then I think I would go for Lana Del Rey. And Nirvana. I really like everyone.
MARK: King Crimson? Robert Fripp. Have you heard him?
TOYAH: (laughs) Oooh! That's a loaded question, Mark! I think it is well known that King Crimson appeals to more men than women. (bites her finger)
MARK: Shall we move on? (laughs) Ooh . . . I think our time’s up!
TOYAH: Also Robert doesn't know what I do. He still thinks I'm the cook.
MARK: He is the proudest person around. When you are performing and honestly - I've seen this - he just totally adores you.
TOYAH: The irony is he loves pantomime. When we were working together, we've done a few pantos together - I would know where he's sitting and I'd look out and he'd just be in tears. He’d cry at the songs. He'd cry at the sad part of the story. He'd have a light wand up. He'd be waving it. He loved pantomime!
MARK: Yeah he did. I remember that. Absolutely. And you were fantastic in pantomime because for all those people that go “oh, panto . . . “. We did “Jack And The Beanstalk”, twice actually, and you were “Jack”!. You were “Jack” taking on the world! Taking on that giant, you wanted to climb to the top! I remember them saying something like “no, you can't go to the top, Toyah. It's not safe”. And you said, “I'm Jack! I want to go to the very top!” Which is absolutely right and you had the sword and you did the fighting. Just a fantastic principal because you played it for real which is of course how -
TOYAH: Yeah, you have to. I think now pantomime is actually very respected. I know what you're saying about the past, but my feeling was – families - you get 3-4 generations of a family come together to see pantomime. They've paid a hell of a lot of money. And I am not going to mess about with their lives and their experience of theatre and very occasionally, I think only or twice have I worked with people who have not respected the audience in pantomime. And I will not work with those people again. That audience is gold. You're giving them probably their first and only experience of theatre and they are God. Don't mess with them. And you're the same, Mark. We went out there and we gave 150% because this is a precious time for these families.
MARK: It is, and it's sad to think that - we're recording this in in mid- June - and there's a chance that the panto this year won't be happening, which is really sad. It's a great chance for fitters to make money, it’s first time the kids have been to the theatre. In many cases it brings families together. There's very few shows where the entire family can get together.
TOYAH: We might get virtual panto, possibly. I've just been booked for two drive-in festivals and if these work then that's what I'm going to be doing for the rest of the year. Drive-in festivals at vast venues and there is a potential for theatres to move into open air sites and do this.
MARK: It’s magic if it happens. Even if it rains. We’ve all been Regent's Park open air theatre. We’ve been to local parks and seen shows. As the light fades in the summer and it’s wonderful when the lights come on. Even a good winter's night - it really could be absolutely magical …
TOYAH: Ah! Yeah. I think we’ll get round it. We as a country, I think are world renowned for just getting through things.
MARK: Yeah. I’ll just mention the presenting as well as everything else. You’ve done some mainstream presenting. Is it a case with you, Toyah, “I'll do whatever. If like the project, I will do it” (Toyah laughs) Is that your philosophy?
TOYAH: I think that is a way of putting it. Yes. I'm a bit more discerning now. I'm 62 years old and I want to be responsible in what I do and there has been an element of TV where we are asked to do things because people know we’re consummate performers and we'll do them. So there are things I would say no to now, but my my motto is never say never. There's no such word. I love working. I love working on camera. I love working on stage and I'd rather be working than sitting at home, so that's probably why my career is so eclectic. But I think now I see myself as an artist.
My voice at the moment is phenomenal and I don't mind ringing my own bell on that. My singing voice has never been better. My writing has had so much experience it’s now at the best it's ever been. So I’m now honouring myself as an artist. And if people don't respect that then people won’t find me in their world. They won’t be connected to me. So I’m much more respectful to myself. You and I have done jobs where we've been dragged through the mud and they are very rare, but I just don't have the physical strength now to do that and feel sane. Does that make sense?
MARK: Completely. I think that happens as you get older you just make that decision. You say “I've been there, and I don't need to go there again, and I won't go there again”. I'll never forget you rolling about the floor singing “once I had a secret love”, I thought how could you do this!? You were literally on your back on the stage rolling about but still singing.
TOYAH: Did I do that?! I thought I just walked – this is “Calamity Jane”?
MARK: Yeah
TOYAH: I thought I just walked to the front of the stage and just sang it?
MARK: No, you were so physical! You were doing stuff and I thought how is she going to do it?! Honestly, you did. Well, whether you changed it a couple of nights but I couldn't believe that you were just “now I shout it from the highest hills”. It was amazing.
TOYAH: (sings) “Now I shout it from the highest . . . ” Well, I do remember Deadwood stage. The dancers – a wonderful wonderful chorus team did something with me that I still go cold over when I think about it so . . . (sings) “The Windy City is so pretty” and I'm on top of the stagecoach and in the first year of this I would jump off that stagecoach and they’d catch me. I’d go to the front. We do this dance that Craig Revel Horwood choreographed and then I’d go back to the stage, to the bottom of the stagecoach, put my hands up. Two wonderful strong dancers would grab my wrists. Throw me into the air probably as high as 10 feet. Catch me and put me back on top of the stagecoach while I was singing “Windy City” I mean how – I was 42! (laughs)
MARK: You can still do it! I know you could. You could still do it.
TOYAH: Just thinking about it . . . (laughs)
MARK: Maybe I’m getting mixed up then. Maybe that’s what is was. I can’t remember the show you were -
TOYAH: “Calamity Jane” was a physical show. Were you thinking about - because remember I've done . . . “Trafford Tanzi”. I've done “Cabaret”, I've done “Taming Of The Shrew”. “All About Nothing” . . . I've done a lot.
MARK: I haven't seen those though
TOYAH: It must be “Calamity Jane”
MARK: It was great. And it's been truly wonderful talking to you Toyah, thank you so much
TOYAH: Has it come to an end?
MARK: Yeah, we’re out of time and I just hope people will donate. Go back to the Acting For Others website if you're not watching this on that already, go back to Acting For Others and donate and just give whatever you can. Toyah Willcox. Thank you so much.
TOYAH: Thank you, Mark, and it's great to see you and stay safe everybody and thank you for this opportunity. It’s been lovely.
Acting For Others
You can watch the interview HERE
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