TOYAH ON
WHUS RADIO
STORRS, CONNECTICUT
SUNDAY ALL OVER THE WORLD
WITH JOEL KRUTT
1991

 

JOEL KRUTT: Welcome Toyah Willcox. Welcome to WHUS, Storrs, Connecticut, pushing the envelope. What do you think of Connecticut so far?

TOYAH: I’ve been here for half an hour. I was driven here, it’s very pretty and it has lots of trees, thank goodness, having driven from New York Connecticut is paradise

JOEL: Compared to it’s a little different. A lot people who are listening may not be real familiar of who you are. They may just be starting to hear about who you are

TOYAH: Yeah, that’s understandable

JOEL: Your background, way back, late 70’s you starred in - you’ve had two career paths, maybe they were the same career path just -

TOYAH: No, they’re dual. Acting and singing very separate careers. Whenever I tried to merge them I think it’s been pretty catastrophic (snorts)

JOEL: When did that happen?

TOYAH: I was in the West End in London doing cabaret, playing "Sally Bowles" in "Cabaret" (below) and even though it was a success I didn’t feel it was what I was supposed to be doing. I prefer to keep both things very separate

JOEL: So no musical theatre particularly?

TOYAH: If I do musical theatre it will be when I’ve written my own musical projects, put it that way. Rather than this kind of traditional form of musical theatre. Music for me is … well, start at the beginning - music to me is the truest language we have on this planet. It’s the purest language

Therefore it’s very special to me. If I’m doing music it must represent what I am trying to say and I don’t mean that self-centeredly, I mean that more as a woman and talking from the universal body of the woman. So I don’t really want to bugger round with that language - am I allowed to say that?

JOEL: Sure

TOYAH: Oh, good. It’s my religion. Music is my religion

JOEL: It’s funny, that was something I picked as I was looking through lyrics and looking through themes, identity as a woman was very clear. In different ways - sometimes self-depreciating almost, sometimes humorous kind of way, sometimes very straight forward

TOYAH: That’s our roleplay. I think women are brought up to be kind of self–depreciating, stuff like that. What I’m looking for is to find a true female voice that isn’t formed on male opinions. I have to stress that doesn’t come from a woman who wants to alienate men, it comes from a woman who wants to complement a man and wants to be in harmony with men. I truly believe harmony is black and white, it’s left and right. They’re two different worlds, they’re two completely different opinions

I think a lot of women in rock music are being what the men expect of them. What I’ve done in my life I’ve always done what is not expected of me and it causes a lot of friction and a lot of trouble. But I think the glory of being a woman is that you are feminine and that femininity should be cosseted and you should be proud of it. It shouldn’t be roleplay

JOEL: Do you think that has anything to do with … problems with critics, with not being able to get over here and get your music played in the USA?

TOYAH: No, that’s bad management. I’ve had three managers in my careers. They’ve all worked on certain levels and been pretty disastrous on other levels. That is my mistake because I chose them, it’s my responsibility. All the time I was suppose to come here, politics got in the way. Let’s face it, I’ve made 13 albums, most of them gold if not platinum, why haven’t I been over here before?

That’s a political problem - I don’t personally think it’s got to do with creativity whatsoever because when people do come across my work they’re open minded and really take to it and understand it and identify with it so I view the reason of me not getting over here as fate perhaps not dealing me the right blow

I now feel as an artist I’m ready to be over here. I’m ready not to compromise. Ten years ago I was compromising everything and being a very unhappy woman so I think fate has actually been kind to me, in a backward sort of way

JOEL: What was the first album that was released over here?

TOYAH: I’ve got no idea …

JOEL: The only two that I know about are “Prostitute” from three years ago …

 

TOYAH: I think everything I’ve done has been on import …

JOEL: Right, somebody’s been able to get it from someplace

TOYAH: Yeah

JOEL: But domestically released?

TOYAH: It must be “Prostitute”. They had a problem with it because of the name alone! (laughs)

JOEL: I was going to say - if politics were a problem and things they’d want to present you with for first time in the United States, first album - what do you have? Prostitute!

TOYAH: (laughs) Hey, let’s make life hard!

JOEL: It’s so easy to start with, yeah!

TOYAH: Yeah but the big irony there is, take the title away and you’ve got a very pure clean album

JOEL: It’s a fascinating album, it uses a lot of high tech things in a very human way

TOYAH: Yeah but let’s look at censorship. The only thing they’re censoring on that album is the title because everything on it - there’s no perverse sexual attitude on it, none of lyrics refer to bad sex to violence or anything. They refer to inner nature, they’re introspective. It’s just such a healthy album. The reason I gave it that title is because historically women are given a tough time, women are second class citizens

OK, they can raise children, they can raise a family, they can hold a family together but then can be beaten up, they can be murdered, they can represented as sex objects in the media world. But boy, they can’t voice their opinion, can they? (laughs) I think “Prostitute” is that kind of opinion. Here we are, let us voice it. We have incredible spiritual depth, let us explore it, let us live in a spiritual world. “Prostitute” is perhaps a little bit angry about those restrictions that been put upon us

JOEL: Any particular tracks on that you’re particularly akin to as the whole thing?

TOYAH: Another problem with it is, especially for radio play, it’s an conceptual album

JOEL: Right, it doesn’t have a straight cuts in it

TOYAH: It tells a story. But there’s particular moments like the title track which I love. “Ghosts Of The Universe” I love. The way I made it, I got this drummer Steve Sidelnyk and I said “I want 38 bars per four, then I want you to go 6 80” or something really obscure and then I edited it all together and improvised the vocals on top and put lots of sampled music on. I actually play guitar on it but my guitar playing leaves a lot to be desired … Just build a 3D sound picture through experimentation

JOEL: Originally back in the late 70s and early 80s you didn’t write your own music?

TOYAH: I beg your pardon!?

JOEL: OK, I’m sorry!

TOYAH: What I am basically is a lyricist and I do all the melody lines and the arrangements. But I always work with other musicians. "Prostitute" was the first time I didn’t work other musicians, I worked with a drummer and did all the writing

JOEL: Sorry …

TOYAH: No, don’t be sorry! Don’t be sorry

JOEL: And you have a new album -

TOYAH: “Ophelia’s Shadow” or the “Sunday” project?

JOEL: Let’s do “Ophelia’s Shadow” as we’re talking about your solo work first

TOYAH: Now, “Ophelia’s Shadow” to me … I utterly love it. To me it’s the height of commercialism. Everyone is saying it’s part of “Prostitute” which I don’t understand

JOEL: Doesn’t really sound like that all!

TOYAH: No, it doesn’t to me either. But in England they’re saying “oh, this is the follow up to “Prostitute”, is this is part of a trilogy” What trilogy? I’m not aware of this trilogy. So I think people just have to stick things in compartments

JOEL: I felt the tone of it sounded probably more like Sunday All Over The World because some to the guitarists on there, some of the tone …

TOYAH: Yeah, it’s a guitar album, it’s an introspective album again. I’m getting close to the female voice that my instincts are telling me is in me somewhere. As a lyricist it’s a very lyrical, poetic album. I wanted to work with guitarists, especially stick players because the stick instrument and the voice just go together brilliantly. The difference between “Ophelia” and Sunday is that in Sunday there's 4 equal individuals, “Ophelia” is governed by me. That gives it a very different atmosphere

JOEL: Do you find on some of the pieces … there’s actually spoken word verses, like “The Woman Who Had An Affair With Herself” starts out with an actual -

TOYAH: Quote

JOEL: - right. Where does your acting background … is that one of those places where -

TOYAH: I think where “Prostitute” comes in relationship here is “Prostitute” is based on the five minutes before I go stage, where you get an announcement “this is your five minute call to the stage, please, everybody” and it’s in that moment that the fear grasps you and you realise you are alive, because you feel you’re just about to be executed. You’re so aware of your body

With the quotation from "Hamlet" on “Ophelia’s Shadow” - Shakespeare’s brilliant irony was that when the plays were written, boys played the women’s roles, women weren’t allowed to play them. And when women were allowed to play them, they were prostitutes, they were social defectives. Makes me so angry! (laughs) British history! I took that quote because it’s Hamlet having wooed "Ophelia", he then denies his love and she goes mad and droned herself so it’s

"Get thee to a nunnery, you make me mad, you listen you amble, God gives you one face you wear another, you create masks.”

Come on, don’t we all create masks, Shakespeare? My "Ophelia" doesn’t basically drown herself, she uses the medium and metaphor of water to fulfill herself. Where as in "Hamlet" "Ophelia" takes her life in the water. So for me that’s the most powerful imagery on the whole album. I think the only cross-over with acting is I do work with imagery rather than from intellect and I use metaphors a lot

JOEL: That was one thing I had in my notes, which I’m not paying too much attention to (Toyah laughs), there’s no “ohh baby baby” songs. If people are considering that pop music ... it’s a far throw from what regular radio consumption is

TOYAH: I don’t know the role of “oh baby baby” lyrics, I don’t -

JOEL: That’s good!

TOYAH: I don’t know their substance or what role they play in peoples lives

JOEL: I think here they may well mean more than in other places for some reason, it’s a very cultural thing

TOYAH: Love is the most dangerous thing you can experience, you’re so vulnerable, your’re dangerous in love, at least I am! I’m so vulnerable I could break, I’m fighting to keep my sanity, I’m fighting to protect myself because love is a dangerous medium. To have “oh baby baby I love you” is like saying … it’s just banal. You’re looking in the face of sticking a needle in your veins, you’re looking down the barrel of a gun, you’re about to jump in front of that train or out of that building

That’s what love means to me, it’s potentially the most dangerous thing we have to face. If we don’t face it responsibility, we destroy it or we destroy ourselves. So therefore I approach my lyric writing with that form of responsibility and mentality that it must be explored and it must be articulated in a way that treats your fellows listeners in a way that they’ve got more than one brain cell (laughs)

JOEL: Good for you! I appreciate that personally. You wrote the lyrics for the Sunday All Over The World album ("Kneeling At The Shrine", 1991) as well

TOYAH: Yeah

JOEL: Some of the themes, those same themes show up there as well. It’s interesting to hear Robert Fripp's music with different lyrics because the lyrics he’s had in the past have (Toyah laughs) never really approached any of those topics nor women at all really …

TOYAH: What’s interesting for me is the roles, sexual roles that our generation has programmed into us. Robert has been through the 1960s when there was sexual freedom and my time is ten years later where we were starting to clamp down a bit. So Robert’s perception of women as far as I’m conserned is that they give free love

My perception of women is that we don’t want children and if we do have children, we’re going to go to work and we’re going have a career and we’re not going to be sexually exploited. Robert and I came together and in love instantly but we’re such opposites and we’ve such problems relating to each other

I think our conflicts have made us very creative together. The conflicts come out in the lyrics. I won’t do his washing, I will not cook for him. He won’t tolerate this in me and it makes for fascinating conversations. And yet we’re so utterly in love and we can’t be separated

JOEL: It’s nice to be able to see past all the little stuff

TOYAH: Yeah! But the lyrics are the sexual conflict that we experience with each other because I’m madly possessive and madly angry and he is a bit more free wheeling than that and just thinks I’m an absolute lunatic. Those images for me, the image of the witch being burned in “Strange Girls” ... I was watching a program on English TV about the folklore of the werewolf and I thought my husband’s a werewolf, he tempts me in and says “hey little girl, I’ll protect you” when really that is a metaphor for the ball and chain in the man's wrist and ankles

I thought back to times in history when any woman who stepped out of line was either called a witch or a hag and got burned and the lyrics for “Strange Girls” came very quickly (laughs). Or the emotional intent was inside me

JOEL: Straight into that “If I Were A Man” - I thought that was interesting balance of the two ideas

TOYAH: "If I Were A Aan" was a hard one for me to accept on the album because I love the song and it’s just a bit too judgmental for me. I’ve learned over the past year that being judgmental is not a way of being creative. So that song represents in me something that is old hat. Yet men seem to like it and it is just saying if I was a man would you trust me? Simple as that

JOEL: How did the songs come together in this project?

TOYAH: We all met up in a rehearsal room and improvised

JOEL: Just put bits to together that worked … ?

TOYAH: Yep. I would usually go at the end of the day and write lyrics in the morning and come in the next day and say “hey, I’ve got this idea for this, let’s try that.” It was a true democracy without a hierarchy. We’ve all got quite extreme experiences in music so we call ourselves instructors rather than “I’ve got more experience in music therefore you do what I tell you.” We accept each other’s criticism honorably

JOEL: Going back a few years ago, in the 1987 interview you made a reference to - and this may well be what you’re doing now - of being called FrippFripp. Is that the logical extension?

TOYAH: The original Sunday All Over The World band was called FrippFripp because it was Mr and Mrs Fripp and we were touring Europe and the posters were saying “Robert Fripp” everywhere, they didn’t refer to a band and then some would say “Robert Fripp and Toyah Willcox”, and this just narked us because we really are a band

If you take one of the members away, one of the vital supports, it’s like a crutch is missing. You fall over. The way the music is structured, it four equal parts. So we thought we had to get ourselves a band name and it became Sunday All Over The World

JOEL: Did that come from the song or?

TOYAH: Yeah, came from the song. I wanted to call ourselves Strange Girls but they were a bit worried about that (both laugh)

 

JOEL: What do you call the band for short? Just Sunday?

TOYAH: Usually it’s initials SA … W

JOEL: If you can think of them (both say the initials at the same time and laugh) Yeah I can’t do them either! In terms of you TV and stage work, do we ever get to see any of it over here?

TOYAH: You’ve seen television over here, there was a film I did with Greta Sacchi and Laurence Olivier and Roger Rees called "The Ebony Tower" (above). That was shown over here twice. I did a film with Lorimar productions with Katharine Hepburn and George Cukor directing called "The Corn Is Green" that’s shown over here many times

But they’re very diverse film projects because I’ve got the art films I’ve done with Derek Jarman like "The Tempest" and "Jubilee" so I think unless you really want to see me you don’t notice I’m in these things. I did The Who film "Quadrophenia". I intend to do more films, I haven’t closed the door on that. But you can’t predict and you can’t plan with films

JOEL: Whenever opportunity comes that will benefit something that you want to do …

TOYAH: Yeah, what I’ve started to do in England now as a writer I’m writing a one woman show about Janis Joplin, which I start this year called “Strangers On Earth”. And Doris Lessing, touch wood, has given me permission - because she keeps withdrawing her permission for me to do “Memoirs Of A Survivor” as a one woman show

Both of these will have video and TV rights. I’m writing a film script which is a big project, a very big project and generally artistic reaction in England is this is my main work. That’s a film project for me to star in. Over the years I’ve realised rather than saying “oh I’m not happy, I’m not offered the right part” perhaps I should write the parts I want to play so I started doing that

JOEL: In relationship to the way music is promoted here, any plans to do any videos to throw on MTV or wherever they’re going to show?

TOYAH: You’ve probably heard this before from my husband - we’ve made both of these albums, well, “Ophelia”, “Prostitute” and Sunday All Over The World - were made with no support whatsoever. They were absolutely positively criticised, people were trying to stop us from working together. It’s all politics that are quite relevant because the fact is we felt so strongly that we should work together. The fact that we’re married is irrelevant - these albums would have been made

We just went ahead and funded them as much as we could ourselves. So as for videos we totally depend on the reaction to these albums so that the next albums we do have a bigger back up. So far the response has been breathtakingly wonderful. We’ve proved ourselves right. Touch wood, again. As for videos we depend of this reaction, for touring we depend on Robert Fripp. I will tour tonight, I will gig in this room if that man will pick his guitar up

I’m ready to do it, he’s the one who’s hard to tie down. He wants to do King Crimson this year and next year. It has to be done, it’s a big project and he needs to get it done and out of his system and it will do him a lot of good. Perhaps after that he’ll tour Sunday

JOEL: That was a little problem with King Crimson - is that band picked out already or -

TOYAH: Well, with Robert what he tends to do is he’ll come to me and say “do you mind if I go and tour in two months time, I can’t tour without your permission” and I know damn well it’s already booked. This is how he works. He knew who the new King Crimson was twelve months ago. We’ll know when the album’s finished. But that makes him very interesting

JOEL: Oh yeah, just the way how people like myself, who followed his career for God knows how long. Being in high school and being able to see that thread and tying it through my own life … that you don’t necessarily see something go away. The Sunday band is excellent having listened to that many times now in preparation for this interview. Wonderful music and -

TOYAH: Very different attitudes in music. For Robert - if I’m repeating what he said, tell me to shut up, but he has three ongoing projects. The League Of Crafty Guitarists, Sunday All Over The World and King Crimson. And he intends neither of them ever to stop. They will always be ongoing

JOEL: I’m glad from a personal standpoint that you’re involved with it because this is something - you would’ve still been in England, your records would’ve still been over there, we would not have much of an opportunity to go and say “who’s Toyah Willcox?”. Granted, for you that may not be the best way to have to -

TOYAH: No -

JOEL: Robert Fripp’s coat tails, which, I don’t mean to be … but there’s lots of people - you say Robert Fripp and they all go … ooohhh … I can appreciate that myself so …

TOYAH: It’s hard and also it’s hard for an audience to accept a married couple. There’s something about married couples that perhaps set young people’s teeth on edge. What we had in England was slightly the John Lennon/Yoko Ono syndrome, The Wife, The King, The Baddie and was blamed for all the negativities

But I just don’t believe that is real. I don’t hang to coat tails and I certainly don’t hold him back in anything he does. I’ve got projects of my own to get on with but the irony here is I’ve been aching an itching to work in America for 14 years. I can only think that great big capital G in the sky has thought that time isn’t right but perhaps it’s right now

JOEL: Well, we’re glad to have you here and we’re almost out of tape here so Toyah Willcox, thank you very much for being with us, this has been fun

TOYAH: Thank you

TOYAH ON
FAITH & MUSIC
ITV1
18.9.2006

HOST: Toyah Willcox shot to fame as a teenage performer. In a performance career spanning nearly 30 years, Toyah has had 13 Top 40 singles, appeared in over 20 stage plays and made 15 solo albums

TOYAH: Music is definitely a spiritual experience, yes. Music is a heightened awareness. I think music is a language we should learn and be aware of. I think it’s criminal if a child is denied the knowledge of music because yes, it does bring you closer to a universal consciousness

Even though I was a punk rocker other punks didn’t really accept me as being a pure punk. The New Romantics never accepted me. If one could hold up the basic review of your life from an an art critic it is "this woman does not fit in"

HOST: Toyah’s rebellion started young. When she needed the lyrics for a backing track she found them in an old school exercise book

TOYAH: The lyrics I’d already pre-written 13 years earlier fitted and I put it down and went to the studio and I said "listen to this, boys, I’ve never sung anything like this and I feel a little ashamed"

I don't want to go to school
Don't want to be nobody's fool
I want to be free
I want to be me (laughs)

And the look on Nick Tauber’s (the producer) face was fantastic. He said “I don’t want to tell you this, Toyah, but it’s a hit! “(laughs)

SONG: I Want To Be Free

TOYAH: I felt a little bit ashamed because it was so cashing in on my new youth audience but there are genuine ethical points of view in there, in the middle eight and that's quite a nice epic to have

Tear down the wallpaper
Turf out the cat
Tear up the carpet
And get rid of that

I was born in Birmingham in 1958, went to a public school and education was firmly based on dance and music

HOST: At school Toyah discovered her own disabilities, including dyslexia

TOYAH: It was then that I realised that slowly I was a bit different from the others. I had a very bad speech impediment due to an incredibly high roof of the mouth and I had a twisted spine so I was quite a twisted child. I had one leg longer than other so I had to wear a raised shoe. These aren’t remarkable disabilities, I kind of nicknamed them invisible disabilities because I look and can behave like an able bodied person. As I grew older I couldn’t grow into the mould, I was growing out of the mould

It became a very frustrating time for me. I could never have a heart-to-heart with my mum, she wasn’t that kind of mother. There was strictness and a lot of discipline in our relationship. The rebellion was more about me rebelling against my gender than anything else because she fought to make me wear dresses and to wear nicely girly things

When birthdays came along and I understood what a birthday was, she wanted to buy me a doll and I wanted a gun. She just could not accept the fact that I would fight tooth and nail anything that defined me as being a woman

I wouldn’t say I bought into the punk ethos, I’d say I was born a punk. When I was living in Birmingham there was no-one around like me. I felt very alone. Then at the age of about 17 I went to see the Sex Pistols and the room was full of 300 kids, who were very similar to me and I’d never met any of them before. It was a wonderful moment because suddenly I wasn’t alone anymore

Punk was incredibly accepting of everything and everyone. I didn’t worry about my dyslexia, I didn’t worry about my limp and that gave me confidence to go on. It gave me the confidence to leave Birmingham, it gave me the encouragement to be different

HOST: Toyah was different. At 17 she was offered an acting role in London. At the same time she got a band together and started writing

TOYAH: In 1978 when I wrote “Neon Womb”, which is the first lyric I wrote having moved to London - I was actually in Victoria tube station about 6 o’clock in the morning and it was incredibly warm. I remember just sitting there thinking “oh, this must be what a womb feels like”. My mind was actually whirring and I thought “it’s like a neon womb” and I love the imagery

SONG: Neon Womb

I felt that I was cocooned in my own world and I think every teenager lives in their own world. The world revolves around them. I moved to London and it was quite a scary thing to do because I knew nothing about London. I just knew if was going to succeed or break into acting, London was the place it happened

HOST: Film maker Derek Jarman spotted her potential and approached Toyah for a part in his planned punk film "Jubilee"

TOYAH: I did what I always did in those days and flicked through the script and saw which character had the most lines. I said “can I play "Mad?” and he said “why do you want to play her?” and I think I actually said “because she’s got a lot to do in it.” So Derek said yes and then three weeks later I got a phone call and he said “I’ve had to cut a character because the budget isn’t big enough for all these roles. I’m very sorry, it’s "Mad”"

I fell apart because the whole of my existence and my need and that desperate thing to be wanted and be part of something ... When you’re sitting alone in your bedsit thinking "what am I going to be doing next?" I wanted to be doing this film

I absolutely fell apart, put the phone down. So I had three very bleak weeks just thinking “what am I going to do next? I don’t know what I’m going to do. I just feel like topping myself “ and suicide was always in my mind those days so I called Derek and Derek said “oh thank God you’ve got hold of me, we’ve put "Mad" back in the film. We start next week and we want you to work with Adam Ant and write a song and all of that"

I said “oh, thank you, thank you” and he said “we can’t pay you much, it will £300” and I said “I don’t care, I don’t care” and he said “we will feed you.” And apparently Derek had cut his fee as director to put me back in because he realised that I had to play that role or die

During the beginning of the 1980s the video kind of era kicked in and it almost became more important what the video was like rather than what the song sounded like

SONG: Thunder In The Mountains

“Thunder In The Mountains” I said to Godley & Creme, who made that video, I would either like to ride a Sherman tank down Oxford Street and be blowing up the shops, which obviously wasn’t possible and we’d have to pay to have Oxford Street re-tarmacked

I said "I’d like a chariot" and they went away and had a think. They came back and they said “we’ve made you a chariot.” I didn’t realise it was going to be a front of a car with a pony on it!

They’d done this on an airfield and they said “there you go, ride it off .” Oh my goodness it was unbelievably difficult. I can not tell you how hard it was. This mirror was just like bashing into my stomach, I was bleeding by the end of the day. It cut through my costume, everything. But this little pony, this spirited little pony was just off and there’s me going “oh no, oh no, oh no, oh God!” Just me and them really, having great fun

The age of 18 right up until I was about 24, I had the most extraordinary luck. I don’t know where it came from. Because I don’t think I was extraordinarily talented, I was just very very unusual

HOST: By 1980 Toyah was on a roll, stardom beckoned. But then her band broke up

TOYAH: I though it was end of my music career. I was standing on the side of Finchley Central tube station one morning and I was looking at the rails thinking how easy it would be just to fall in there and just end all this incredible pain. Because I did find living quite painful and full on endless conflict

And a man came up to me and he said (chirpily) “good morning!” It was a little Jewish man with the hat on and everything and I said “hi” and I thought “oh, here we go” because I looked so punky I did get propositioned an awful lot at tube stations

He said “don’t do it, everything’s going to be fine tomorrow.” And I thought “oh God, that’s really weird, that’s such a weird thing to say” and when the tube came I thought “no, I’m going to be nice to this man” because I wasn’t very nice, I just went (blows a raspberry and waves hand) and I thought I should thank him for saying that and I turned around and there was no-one on the platform

I went to work, recorded “It’s A Mystery” and he was right, the next day my life completely changed. It was decided that it was going to be the single, record company were going to invest in it and “It’s A Mystery” was my first hit song

SONG: It’s A Mystery

I think in many ways music and music venues for a lot of people are their churches, it’s where they go to experience that heightened awareness. There are moments in a set and in a song where you know you’re going to feel something, the hair is just going to go right up on the back of your neck

“Danced” is one of them because as soon as you hit the end of the long intro and I go “and then we daaaaaaa---aaaaanced”, which in itself is queuing the audience up a certain way to behave but then the guitar goes dan dan dan dada dan dan dada dan. That comes from folk, that comes from punk, that comes from rock. That is telling the audience actually subconsciously to dance

SONG: Danced

Calling it “Danced” is actually provoking the audience to dance so of course they go bonkers, absolutely bonkers. It weird that no-one seems to click that it’s about the second coming

As I’m growing older and I’m a bit more confident in my body, than I certainly was in my 20s. My costumes are quite outrageous, they’re almost self exploitative but they’re certainly provocative. I show more flesh than a woman of my age should show, but that is provocation because I think if women of my age don’t stand up and say “hey! We’re not invisible” then we will remain invisible

HOST: Toyah’s far from invisible. Yet her performances are as much about self protection as putting herself on display

TOYAH: So I’ve created this character that I don’t think no-one else can replicate. But it’s still a character, it’s still a mask. Everything about my life ironically is about not showing who I am. I put up deliberate barriers. Derek Jarman once said to me “you know Toyah, you are not a singer, you an actress”

This was at the hight of my singing fame and I said “what do you mean?” and he said “I know you. I’ve seen you at your most vulnerable and that’s not what you’re giving on stage. You’ve created a character.” And in many ways he was dead right. I never really show of who and what I truly am

HOST: Even Toyah’s costumes are designed as theatrical protection

TOYAH: I have an outfit that I’ve been wearing for the last 3 years. Because it’s made out of copper, it’s not only beautiful to look at but it’s untouchable. It's impenetrable and that is very much me. You only get so far, I just don’t let anything in any further

SONG: Rebel Run

HOST: "Rebel Run" typified Toyah’s vulnerability encased in armour

TOYAH: I thought let’s do it on roller skates. I’ve never roller skated before but I can learn. I kind of access the anger in me which is an incredible revenue of energy. It really really does motivate you. It’s quite fabulous

A constant thing in my life has been not only an inner anger but probably what’s more appropriate to say it’s frustration because I have grander thoughts than this little 5 footer is suppose to be dealing with

HOST: Christmas Eve live "Whistle Test" had become an annual tradition. In 1983 (it was 1981, Ed.) it was offered to Toyah (below)

TOYAH: It was so prestigious to get that gig because it was traditional the big latest artist always got to get it and I was the one that got it. Duran Duran didn’t get, Spandau Ballet didn’t get it, I got it. It meant I was playing in front of 12 million people that night. It was a fabulous honour because to know you’re playing to that many people made you kind of want to open the chakras and give a bit more out

SONG: War Boys

TOYAH: Both exhilarating and utterly terrifying knowing I had that gig. When the gig ended it was as if a chapter of my life closed. Because I knew that gig onwards I really wouldn’t be able to repeat that again. It was very powerful and poignant

I had an army of fans. Whereever I went 5000 people would turn up. I could control them, I could make them move as one, I could make them sing as one and it became quite sexual. Because that whole of that rhythm thing, that whole thing moving as one and seeing 5000 people moving as one you knew it wasn’t an intellectual instinctive thing. This was tribal. “IEYA” is what the band calls the riot song. It just evoked bad behaviour

SONG: IEYA

TOYAH: I just started to explore syllable sounds and “IEYA” sounded like a war cry. Much of my lyrics are about good and evil and are about a Christian theme. So I wanted to write about the inevitability of man going against their God. And it’s about man, the beast, meeting God, the higher being

With my audience, all physical boundaries are really down, even though the mask is on, it’s just this great pile of conflict. Because they do try to molest, they do try to drag me in, they do kind of touch inappropriately sometimes and I feel very warm and responsible towards them

But once I’m off stage . . . whoosh, whoosh, (makes sweeping movements with hand) I’m whisked away. I don’t call the people that camp outside your house, that break into your house, that give you death threats - they’re not fans, they’re mentally ill. So you never talk about those and you never hear about them until they do some harm to their idol. But that is the flip side of fame

HOST: Toyah has found a place where she feels secure and can be alone. It’s back in the West Midlands where she started out

TOYAH: It is my spiritual home. It’s bang on the town on the High Street but it’s not isolated in the country and I know it’s the house I will be in forever, come what may. Ironically by moving into a strong, rather large community we’ve protected ourselves

Once I walk off stage the person I am just wants to be alone. I know people who phone me up after not having seen me for 7 days emerge from house, say “are you still alive? Don’t you miss people?” and I go “no”

I almost need solitude to kind of formulate and get everything in order and to creatively take the next journey. I don’t think I could do with a group of people around me

Do I get lonely? Very very rarely. The way I view it is if someone goes into the stock room, knocks all the stock off the shelves, that’s when I’m with people for a long long time. I then have to go away, be alone and put everything back in the place it should be in. I just feel completely mentally unravelled if I can’t be alone

HOST: One reason solitude is necessary for Toyah is that she has always crafted her performances to give as much as possible to her audience

TOYAH: Back then you were one with the audience. It was absolutely phenomenal how it happened. We had certain songs that we deliberately placed in the hour and half, 2 hours performance, knowing that we could pull the audience to another level. “Obsolete” is one of them. It’s about this incredible sexual beat

SONG: Obsolete

TOYAH: All through my life I’ve absolutely loved religious music, whatever religion it’s from. It’s inspired music, it’s music that taps into the soul. I’m not great on fundamentalism, I’m not great on dogmatism and I certainly hate elitism in religion

But what is extraordinary about religious music is its longevity and its timelessness and it does come from the soul. Because of that I’ve always had incredible passion for it. That in many ways has influenced what I went on to become. Even as a punk singer I could say all my work is based on Christian belief

SONG: The Vow

“The Vow” for me is a very powerful song, so powerful I don’t do it live. I can’t just quite handle it. It’s about how mankind is so self-destructive. We have incredible ability to show love and we also have this incredible ability to take it away

If we could see how vulnerable we are in within this universe and how unnecessary we are within this universe then perhaps we would learn how to behave and stop being so selfish

So “The Vow” is actually about this incredible power of love and to also foresee that we are destructive people as well. So out of love we kill and out of love we give birth. It’s one of these amazing contradictions about the human race

HOST: Toyah’s rebellion continues. Her songs reflect her inner anger and promote the sexuality of older women

SONG: I Explode

TOYAH: I was forming a writing partnership with a wonderful writer called Tim Elsenburg, who is 20 years younger than me, possibly 27 years younger than me! I said “Tim, I have this real problem about being a woman and being 47 - at the time -  and slowly becoming invisible. I want to write music about the fact that I believe that women become more sexualised as they get older and they need to make their mark”

I came in with these lyrics “Nothing pricks like a little death, taste the salt upon my breast, little tears of love and pain, tumble down to my lap again” and Tim said “well, that sounds like your talking to a child” and I said “no I’m not, I’m talking about something utterly pornographic! We worked on all this imagery of how to sexualise an older woman and “Little Tears Of Love” is about the maturity and confidence an older woman has in the sexual place

SONG: Little Tears Of Love

HOST: Sexual confidence may come with maturity but Toyah denies her decision to have a facelift reflects a personal need to look younger

TOYAH: I did not have surgery to be sexy, I had surgery to look well. There’s this whole thing about maintenance. Everyone else around me does it, they just don’t talk about it so that when someone puts their hand up and says “well, actually I have had surgery because I live in a hypocritical world where I know if I have surgery I’m going to get more work.” Therefore I’ve had it but I’m going to talk about it. For me it’s maintenance, really, and it’s not about looking sexier

HOST: In 1986 Toyah found love. Or love found her in the shape of Robert Fripp, the enigmatic guitarist with King Crimson

TOYAH: Robert (above with Toyah on their wedding day 16.5.1986) apparently fell instantly in love with me because he loved my imperfections. I can remember the first time he saw my feet and I don’t let anyone see my feet because they’ve been operated on, they’ve been manipulated (laughs) and they don’t really look like feet

When he saw my feet the first thing he did was kiss them. He just kissed my feet and said “I love your feet.” That was the first intimacy I ever had with him. I just knew I was going to be with this man for the rest of life at that point

He’s always been adorable because he’s not a testosterone fuelled man, he’s like me, he likes to escape his gender. So he was very gentle and very in touch with his feminine side and his masculine side. I’d never known anyone like that and I instantly trusted that and felt very at home and almost rescued at being in his company

It was like aaah (sighs). At last I’m with someone who doesn’t try to bully me or kind of pressurise me into something. Within five days he said “look I know you’re my wife, will you marry me?” And I said "can I have a think about this, please!?” So nine months later we got married

HOST: Not only has the marriage worked for 20 years, Toyah and Fripp have worked together forming the band Sunday All Over The World. But married life brought repercussions for Toyah

TOYAH: I was angry. I was angry that because when we got married I was suppose live in my husband’s shadow, and this was going on on many levels. Bank managers were wanting to talk to my husband about my bank accounts, I felt I’d lost my identity

I felt that I could no longer work from intuition. (The 1988 album) "Prostitute" came from that. I was venting my anger on the record industry, who perceived me as getting married and was going to settle down and have children and I really felt prostituted. So it was a very angry album

HOST: Gender is a central issue in Toyah’s life to the point where she questions the validity of being a woman

TOYAH: I actually loathe being a woman. I always have done. It doesn’t mean I’m not gay and I’m not anti-feminism. I just hate being defined by a gender. I hate it with a passion. If I could phone up the body factory now and order the perfect body it would be 6”2, it would very muscular and it would probably be male

SONG: Brand New World

HOST: If a song sums up Toyah’s anger and conflict it’s “Brave New World”. The hymn from a wild woman that never fitted in

TOYAH: The whole thing about “Brave New World” is the feeling of being a changeling within another world and just not fitting in and feeling different. I said “I want to be seen coming out of the sea and I want to have this beautiful white horse around Battersea Power Station" I got it

But what I also got was the fact that we had to shoot this video in 24 hours and for that I had to be on Hastings beach at four in the morning for the sun rise so it was absolutely freezing. They had to make me up from about midnight untill six in the morning, put me in the sea, I had to go into the sea backwards so they could reverse the film, me coming out the sea looking perfect

I was so cold I can’t tell you and to warm me up they cave me a bottle of brandy. Which is just a huge mistake because our next shoot was at Battersea Power Station on a white horse (above). I was drunk, I’d had a bottle of brandy and I was cold to the core

And I’m actually on this horse pulling at the reigns going “stop you little (bleep)!” and it’s all in slow motion (laughs). So in the slow motion sequence of “Brave New World” where I'm on this beautiful white charger screaming, I’m actually shouting “get me off this (bleep) horse!”. It looks so dramatic, it’s looks fantastic and I’m really loosing it (laughs)

HOST: Toyah’s work schedule is as demanding as ever, searching for the perfect performance

TOYAH: I feel that there’s a lot of acting, there’s a lot of singing, there’s a lot of writing that I still want to achieve. I haven’t achieved it yet. I haven’t found what that moment is. And that drives me because I don’t want to let my God down. I do believe we all do have a purpose and we have something that we are here for. I’m optimistic that that’s still yet to come

You can listen to the audio from the programme HERE

TOYAH ON
BBC TV LONDON
WITH TAYFUN KADIOGLU
22.4.2003

TAYFUN KADIOGLU: Hello and welcome, I’m Tayfun and this is BBC London. Joining me now is a woman who’s had a highly successful, prolific and incredibly diverse career. With hit records and many prestigious screen and stage roles to her credit she’s become one of Britains biggest household names

But my personal favourite was when she presented “The Good Sex Guide Late “ when I was at university, seriously (Toyah laughs) I found it educational and enlightening and it helped to mould me to be the man I am today

She will be bringing "Calamity Jane" to the West End in June, releasing a mini album in May and before that we’ll be watching her in "I'm A Celebirty, Get Me Out Of Here" which is probably what you’re thinking right now! My pleasure to welcome the one and only Toyah Willcox!

TOYAH: Oh, I’m glad I helped form your future life, it’s really nice!

TAYFUN: Oh, it was one of the best shows to have in the evening, to come back and sit down. Half of it was the shock value - Toyah Willcox is talking about some very intimate and personal things ...

TOYAH: It was fabulous. People still talk about it all the time. I met some interesting people on that program. I never knew about pony people, people who like to dress as ponies and pull people in carts. I would’ve never thought of that as some kind of gratifying thing to do but there you go ... the world is diverse

TAYFUN: When producers take on presenters for shows they either like someone who has a lot of experience or a lot of time for a subject or they’re very passionate about it. How did it come about for you?

TOYAH: I have to admit it was really nice. Prospect (the production company) phoned me up and they said “we have this job, it starts next week and no one will do it, would you do it?” and just said “yeah, I’d love to”. The only worry I had was - because I’m quite physically shy - I didn’t want people thinking I was suddenly going into the porn industry. I was really worried about that

But it had completely the opposite affect. Everyone I met were the most normal, grounded sane people and everyone I met publicly while the show was going out, like you - really nice warm people who appreciated a program that talked quite graphically about sex. It took me completely by surprise how warm and friendly everyone came towards me

TAYFUN: It wasn’t gratuitous, it was just really talking about a normal subject -

TOYAH: Well, it is a normal subject and it should be a normal subject. But, like you, I didn’t expect it to be. It’s something that I used to do sniggering around the table with my girlfriends and the idea of doing a two hour show were we kept a straight face and talked about sex, which we didn’t - we always ended up laughing, especially when we talked about peoples dilemmas so it was a really really nice job. I loved every minute of it

TAYFUN: How do you reconcile that with doing something like the "Heaven And Earth" show?

TOYAH: I’m pretty proud of my CV because in one year I went from “The Good Sex Guide Late” to “Heaven and Earth” to “Songs Of Praise”. Not many people can say that! I have quite a controversial view on religion that the bible and many stories about prophets are the best stories ever written and I don’t mean stories in a derogatory term

They are true events, proven historical events but when you look at the history of Christianity, it’s a violent history and it’s a high action history so I think if you can approach history about its extraordinary past it’s as colourful as anything I have ever presented and I’m interested in it on that level

One of my passions is feminist theology and women have been hard done by in many religions. There are some incredible women in our past that don’t get the  limelight they deserve because a lot of religions are male dominated. So I feel quite political when I get into the religious presenter field. The only thing that disturbs me is a lot of people think I’m some kind re-born Christian. I’m not, I’m almost devoutly Buddhist

TAYFUN: Really? I thought you were like a born again type of Christian?

TOYAH: I love Christianity and I think Buddhism and Christianity should marry, I really think that

TAYFUN: That’s the first time I’ve ever heard that

TOYAH: I think the moral future for me is based on those two cultures. I’m not dissing any other religion because culturally I was brought up a Christian therefore culturally I feel I belong there but I just feel -

TAYFUN: What’s the connection there, what’s the -

TOYAH: A lot of religions were formed to create a law, to create rules by which we morally exist with other mankind. They’re way of controlling, a way of policing society. What I love about Buddhism it has mystical side

Christianity and Catholicism used to have a mystical side and that’s almost elitist and we’re coming to an age where we need to bring the mysticism back into our lifes because we’re increasingly living in a secular world where brand names, youth oriented things, sexual oriented things are seen as marketable

I think if we could bring mysticism back into the religion and talk about it more openly, people would then discover what the soul is about - the eternity of the soul and Buddhism is very very good about that

TAYFUN: How long have you been interested in Buddhism? When did that start?

TOYAH: I went to a very religious school, I went to a public school where religious education was the main part of the day as was ballet and music. So I’ve always been interested in it. I’m quite passionate about it and I actually think that life it not for throwing away

Life is part of a coil, part of a loop and we must always remain attached to while were are here and a lot of the time we are not. So I’ve always been fascinated by it. But I am not a person who quotes the bible or cuts my hand and plays the tambourine on a Sunday morning. I am not like that. I’m far more different but I do think that religions are an incredibly important part of our society

TAYFUN: So you don’t view religion as being one of the major conflicts between - looking at the Middle East and western world -

TOYAH: Religion has been a theme and recently a conflict for thousands and thousands of years but also as much as it's been a part of educating mankind it has actually suppressed mankind and I think we need to come clean. We are a phenomenal miracle as human beings

If we cannot see the miracle we are we will never understand why we need religion and the one thing we have as human beings is the power to believe and belief. Take away all religions and look at what belief is. It’s a remarkably powerful thing. We must respect it and use it respectfully

TAYFUN: So can I ask then, as a person who’s pursued a career since the late 70s in the entertainment industry, which isn’t exactly the purest place to work, there’s a lot of temptation out –

TOYAH: OK, you’re going down the happy clappy field of what is pure …

TAYFUN: I just mean there’s a lot of temptation out there to stray from what maybe people regard as moral behaviour with drugs, sex, alcohol. How have you managed to find the balance? Have you been tempted or have you just been -

TOYAH: Luckily I’m a very shy person but again where sex and religion really really do link up, our puritanical view to sex only really came through during the Victorian era where Queen Victoria said that furniture legs had to be covered up

The irony there was she was quite highly sexed, incredibly highly sexed so she was covering up her own moral quilt as it were. Sex is an extraordinary thing and I truly believe that when Jesus Christ was alive on this earth, it’s reported or believed that there was 500 sex cults in Israel alone. They were sex cults rather than religions

TAYFUN: Wow!

TOYAH: So sex has always been an incredibly -

TAYFUN: A fundamental part of human society -

TOYAH: But also a way of loving and sharing and giving. Obviously there’s good sex and bad sex but it’s always been there and it’s always been a part of every culture. So, have I been tempted? Yes!

TAYFUN: But have you acted on that? Or have you been disciplined and said no?

TOYAH: I’m very very shy, which has always helped me in the long term. I’ve been married 17 years, (laughs) so … I mean I drank a lot when I was younger. I used to like to drink and that was my kind of big thing I suppose …

TAYFUN: But not any longer?

TOYAH: No, I don’t drink at all now

TAYFUN: You don’t drink at all?

TOYAH: I’m incredibly boring. I don’t drink tea or coffee or alcohol

TAYFUN: Is this purely on health bases, looking after your body?

TOYAH: Yeah, I’m a a middle aged woman and I want to look after my body, it’s about vanity

TAYFUN: Vanity?

TOYAH: Yeah

TAYFUN: Well, that’s a good a reason as any. Looking at your relationship and your marriage over 17 years - that it itself is an incredible achievement when you’ve got a career in the entertainment industry … What has been the key? The success of that relationship?

TOYAH: We’re not in the same country very often

TAYFUN: Aha! (both laugh)

TOYAH: My husband (Robert Fripp, below with Toyah) is based in Nashville and I’m based in England. His career is American and my career is very UK so when we see each other we’re still absolutely over the moon. It’s really nice, we meet up in hotels and it’s very tactile and we’re great great friends and he’s still the only person I phone when I have a problem. He can sort things out for me, he’s lovely

TAYFUN: So would you say the the key is having that space rather than taking each other for granted. It makes you appreciate the good things about each other?

TOYAH: Yeah, I think it’s all of that but also I really like my independence and I like my choice. For instance I’m about to do “I’m A Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here”. I’m flying to Brisbane while he is arriving in England. He’s in Singapore at the moment and I can phone him up and say “sweetheart, I’m not around for three weeks” and it’s cool

That means more to me than anything. I feel like a free spirit and I feel like I can make choices. I don’t feel like I’m part of a couple so the things I do as a couple is because I want to not because I have to

TAYFUN: Yeah. What about family, children and that?

TOYAH: No, (we) don’t have any of that

TAYFUN: Isn’t that something you wanted?

TOYAH: Never wanted. I actually had nightmares as a child about having a family. I actually used to cry through the night, I was so scared of having to have children

TAYFUN: Was that the process of birth or -

TOYAH: It was the process of birth, being in a family unit, it’s never suited me

TAYFUN: You really have very much a free spirit?

TOYAH: Yeah, I think if I wasn’t in the entertainment world I’d be a travel writer so I’d just be on my own travelling. My husband is quite similar, he’s quite a lone figure as well

TAYFUN: How did you actually meet?

TOYAH: Princess Michael Of Kent introduced us at a charity lunch and she wanted her photo taken with me and at the time she was talking to my husband. She just grabbed us and pulled us together and introduced us and we had the photo done and that was it. Then a year later I met him at the same charity event and he said would I do a charity album with him so I went over to Washington and made the album with him

TAYFUN: In between that year you hadn’t been in touch?

TOYAH: No

TAYFUN: So that was the first time you met and then a year later…

TOYAH: Yeah. I had the picture that was taken of me, him and Princess Michael in my kitchen for that year and I still didn’t know who this man was. It was like “who is that man?”

TAYFUN: Did you feel some kind of -

TOYAH: No

TAYFUN: So it was just -

TOYAH: Yet weirdly the following year when he asked me to do the charity album he actually said to all of his friends who were living in New York “oh, I’m taking three weeks off, I’m going back to England to get my wife” and they sort of (leans back on her seat and looks surprised) … (He was) a committed bachelor ... and they said ”what do you mean?” and he said “I’m suppose to get married now” and he came over to England, we made the album and within a week he proposed to me!

TAYFUN: So he knew that you were the one?

TOYAH: Yeah!

TAYFUN: And that was it?

TOYAH: But he’s always been like that. “Oh I’m going to take a week off, I’m going to meet so and so and work with them” and I say “do they know about this?!”

TAYFUN: When he approached you did it feel ... like completely out of the blue?

TOYAH: Yeah. Totally

TAYFUN: And did you accept immediately?

TOYAH: I said "could I get to know you first?!" (bursts into laughter)

TAYFUN: Well, that’s quite understandable!

TOYAH: “Isn’t it a good idea know each other?” But it was very very nice

TAYFUN: How long was it before eventually you got married?

TOYAH: Nine months. He actually wanted a three year engagement but I found being with him so difficult because he is a major star in America and over here he is an academic star. He’s known as a brain and I was known as kind of a flimsy pop star. I found it very difficult being with him because people were just treating me like dirt because they thought I was thick and the bimbo in the relationship

TAYFUN: That was just in the UK?

TOYAH: That was just in the UK, the Americans are much more embracing of people so we got married because I think I would have done a runner because the external forces were so aggressive

TAYFUN: Was it you that made it - did he realise "forget the three years"?

TOYAH: Yeah, I think he realised

TAYFUN: You also mentioned “I’m A Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here” (above) How did that start? How come you’re involved in that now?

TOYAH: I love the program. I loved the first one, I thought it was the best thing on telly that year and I had a meeting with the producers and I said “I really really love that program. Congratulations, it’s brilliant, count me in for the next one” so they got in touch and said could I do it

I was in the middle of “Calamity Jane” the musical and I said "this is going to be difficult because I’ve got commitments" and when I told the producers of “Calamity Jane” they said “don’t worry, go and do it” so I got a month off to go and do that, then I’m going to come back and go into the West End to do “Calamity Jane”

TAYFUN: Good grief!

TOYAH: It will be strenuous, I will be exhausted but my fame is very comfortable fame, people know who I am but they don’t dislike me for who I am. I was asked by the Celebrity people am I going to be able to handle people knowing everything about me? So it’s an interesting kind of shift in fame

TAYFUN: What do you think is your worst personality trait that’s going to have to be kept in check?

TOYAH: I’m very stubborn

TAYFUN: Stubborn? And especially if you like being on your own a lot? Having your own space?

TOYAH: Yeah, but I do like people and enjoy people -

TAYFUN: 24 hours a day non-stop?

TOYAH: That’s a difficult one because we’re never allowed to be alone, we always have to be escorted by someone everywhere where we go so that will be difficult. What interests me ... I don’t really know who I am

I have been Toyah Willcox for so long and I have been in front of the cameras for so long I don’t really know what’s me anymore. I think in this environment you find out really quickly who you are. I know I’m stubborn, I know I’m very argumentative with men -

TAYFUN: Oh boy!

TOYAH: Especially if the pecking order is male dominated so it will be very interesting

TAYFUN: In other people - do you have any pet hates?

TOYAH: Well, I don’t like smoking and they’re allowed to smoke

TAYFUN: But presumably it’s going to be in the open?

TOYAH: It’s treated as an addiction so they’re allowed to take cigarettes in

TAYFUN: What if they have a drug addiction?

TOYAH: Well, that would be confidential, I wouldn’t know

TAYFUN: They’ll be like yeah sure ... bring them (both laugh)

TOYAH: I don’t know about that but … I really don’t know until get there, so that's terrifying

TAYFUN: And there’s nothing … if one has particularly bad habits apart from smoking ... ?

TOYAH: Oh, bad habits? I think if someone’s got a big ego

TAYFUN: I think it’s probably going to be a case of finding someone who -

BOTH AT THE SAME TIME: Doesn’t!

TOYAH: I don’t think I’ve got a big ego. I enjoy listening to people and I enjoy people but I’m not ego driven, at least I don’t think I am

TAYFUN: Isn’t it hard to be in the celebrity world and not have some sort of an ego, because that’s how you put pride in your work. You’re watching yourself, you’re aware of how you come across -

TOYAH: Yeah, I suppose so

TAYFUN: Maybe that’s a relative thing compared to -

TOYAH: Yeah, I think if someone moans a lot it would get on my nerves I think because I’m positive, I always see the good side of things. If I’m with a negative person I’d probably … (pretends to slap someone round the face a few times)

TAYFUN: I don’t mean to be a sexist but is it more females who moan more?

TOYAH: Rubbish! Please! No, in this environment I bet it’s the men that moan the most, c’mon! Because we’re all going to smell bad, we’re going to be quite grubby and dirty and sweaty. How can a man strut his stuff when he’s demoralised like that? I think it’s going to be the men

TAYFUN: But even if they want to moan, it doesn’t come across as being manly … women don’t have to hide anything like that

TOYAH: Oh rubbish! I think women are tougher. I think we are naturally tougher, we endure pain

TAYFUN: We have to get you back after …

TOYAH: Haha, to see if I’ve got any limbs missing?

TAYFUN: - how you’ve managed (Toyah laughs) ... Now, with your career - you’ve acted, you’ve presented and you’ve sung. If you were forced to choose only one which would it be? Your career from now on?

TOYAH: Where I am now as a 44 year old woman it would be acting because I like hiding behind characters. I’m fed up of being Toyah Willcox. I like to have a character to hide behind

TAYFUN: Acting - is that because it’s also your passion as well as having -

TOYAH: I think I’m used to playing different people, I function by having a script and being someone different. It feels so natural for me to do that whereas if I have to me I just think “oh God, do I have to be funny, do I have to be pretty or do I have to intelligent?” It scares me whereas acting is a shield and I like that

TAYFUN: In fact in your acting career you’ve performed along with some great artists. You’ve had Laurence Olivier, Greta Sacchi (above with Toyah on set of "The Ebony Tower", 1983) and Katharine Hepburn?

TOYAH: Yeah, my first movie was with Katharine Hepburn ("The Corn is Green", 1979)

TAYFUN: What a start!

TOYAH: She chose me for it and she was just fantastic. I had no idea who and what she was. It was directed by George Cukor who directed James Dean and Marilyn Monroe. I was just with two very parental people who saw me as a major talent and did have an ego back then, I was obnoxious

But what I love about Katherine … I would pass her in the car on the way to work, I’d be in a taxi and she’d be cycling in and it was mental independence and it was just magnificent. She was a true feminist and I love that

TAYFUN: What did you learn from this experience, working with these people? Did they shape you as an actress?

TOYAH: No, I don’t think another actor can teach you anything by example other than when in the work mode. No, I learned more by going to the movies and watching telly than I would by working with another actor in the flesh

TAYFUN: You’re focused on yourself?

TOYAH: You’re focused entirely. With “Calamity Jane” (below) I’ve learned the timing from the audiences rather than other actors because the audience dictates what it needs. It’s difficult to say how you learn from an another actor other than admiration. You look at someone on the screen in the finished product and think "God, it’s just brilliant"

TAYFUN: And in terms of background to becoming an actress is it important that you have serious training or is it just from experience?

TOYAH: No, for me I learn through experience and kind of being thrown into the fire. I think you can be thought so much technique and then you’ve got to get out there and do it. It’s a very organic thing. You need an audience, you need to be under pressure to see what you’ve become and who you’ve become and then have the technique

TAYFUN: Looking now at the acting world, who are the people that you most admire and really get the most out of - watching their performances?

TOYAH: I love American movies so I tend to watch a lot of American stars even though I go to theatre here as much as possible. I get so much joy out of Brad Pitt and … they’re not necessarily fantastic actors but ... (laughs) I like my directors, I like Peter Kosminsky, who is a British director and has done a lot of work for the BBC. I just love his work but I also like my Spielbergs ...

TAYFUN: OK. Now, your husband has been living in the States all this time. Have you ever tried to base yourself there and -

TOYAH: Yeah, I’ve been out to LA, I’ve had meetings in LA and unless I was prepared to live there it’s not going happen. I have two elderly parents in England and while they’re alive I’m going to be based here

TAYFUN: Why?

TOYAH: I just couldn’t be able to forgive myself for not being there for them. They’re in very late years so the time will come I think when I will spend some time in America but not while I’m responsible for them

TAYFUN: Maybe, say, 10 years ago, maybe 15 years ago were you not tempted then?

TOYAH: No, I’ve always felt exclusively British and I’m very very passionate about Britain. I’ve never felt the same about Europe, I’ve never felt the same about the Middle East or Japan where you can have a big musical career. I’ve always felt exclusively British. But now I would work anywhere

TAYFUN: Now anywhere?

TOYAH: Yeah

TAYFUN: I also want to talk about - you’re releasing a mini album – I’ve never heard of it before?

TOYAH: Well, in my day it was called an EP, it’s got 6 tracks on it. I had to finish it off while rehearsing “Calamity Jane”, which limited it to a mini album because “Calamity Jane” just went through the roof

TAYFUN: Was it because you had too much going on?

TOYAH: I had too much going on. I’d been writing and working on it for well over a year with a wonderful team of musicians and we got to the stage where I was finishing the mixing while rehearsing for “Calamity Jane” so we got six tracks that we were passionate about and it’s coming out on May the 6th

TAYFUN: It's called “Velvet Lined Shell”. Why have you decided to release this now?

TOYAH: I was intending to bring out a full album and tour but then I got pulled in different directions and I’ve always diversified, I’ve never seen myself exclusively as a singer so I just kind of went with everything and …

TAYFUN: So you’re a workaholic?

TOYAH: I’m a total workaholic

TAYFUN: I don’t know how you’re going to manage the TV reality show, an album, a musical and then you’ll perform gigs?

TOYAH: I know -

TAYFUN: Do you give yourself holidays?

TOYAH: No

TAYFUN: You don’t?!

TOYAH: No. When I think it might be a time for a holiday something always comes up! I’d like a holiday but I think time is so short, make the most of it. The mini album is … this is my 25th year in the business so I was making it for the fan base

I know the fan base are going to find it and love it. We’re rescheduling concerts that I would’ve been doing while I’m in Australia. We’re rescheduling all of that for late September so I think “Celebrity” in an ironic way is going to bring more people in to see what I do obviously and I’m not going to deny that so …

TAYFUN: You’re putting yourself out the, experiencing yourself - at least there should be an upside to the experience?

TOYAH: I think so

TAYFUN: And you have so much energy and drive. Is this something you’ve always had ... as a child?

TOYAH: Yeah

TAYFUN: What were you like as kid? (Toyah with her dad Beric, below)

TOYAH: Very repressed. I went to an all girl school, it was a very religious school. I had to wear even regulation underwear as well as uniform. So I think mentally a lot was going on in there (puts her hands on her head) that I had to keep to myself because I never felt like I fitted

I always felt quite strange and quirky but I had to act normal. I think because of that I’m comfortable when I’m acting rather than being me. So as a kid I was wild but it was privately wild

TAYFUN: So did that inspire you to go into a sort of career you would be comfy in?

TOYAH: I knew from day one that I had to sing and act

TAYFUN: You just said you’ve been in the entertainment industry for 25 years. Is it attractive and could you ever walk away from the limelight?

TOYAH: Oh, that’s a good question! I have days when I think I just want to move to Thailand and never be seen again but I think I’d end up writing. I think I’d always have a connection. I think technology would always allow me a connection. I love writing horror. Really hugely into horror

TAYFUN: Religion, horror, all there?

TOYAH: They’re all so linked, they’re all so related. I’m a huge Clive Parker fan. He links sex and horror. I‘d like, as I get older, to write more

TAYFUN: Writing is going to be the next thing?

TOYAH: Yeah

TAYFUN: I must ask you a few questions about the internet. Do you actually use it?

TOYAH: Very rarely. I use it but I can never find what I’m looking for. I just can’t get my head around how to find something

TAYFUN: So you don’t have any particular favourite websites that you check out?

TOYAH: I try, I really try. The other day I was trying to find an actor so I tried to find the Spotlight directory that gives you all the actors … I just could not get in, I am so bad with computers

TAYFUN: Do you look up your own work much?

TOYAH: No, never. I don’t have anything to do with me whatsoever

TAYFUN: But you have a really good website

TOYAH: I know! I get involved in it as much as I can. I kind of send letters in but I never look. I’m not entertained by myself, I want to get away from myself

TAYFUN: Now, you’re very confident, you’re very strong

TOYAH: I’m strong, I’m not confident

TAYFUN: Not confident? I was going ask you what is your biggest insecurity that you still have, that you’ve not been able to shake off?

TOYAH: That I haven’t achieved anything yet! (laughs) I feel I haven’t achieved anything yet

TAYFUN: You’ve done so much, you’ve managed to cram this career into the time that you have -

TOYAH: I think the day when I’ve got scripts lining up, I’ve got TV lining up, film lining up is the day I’ll feel happy. I envy actors like Alan Bates who just go from film to film to film. I’m desperately trying to find out where I belong and I don’t think I’ve found it yet

TAYFUN: Toyah, this is my favourite question I have to ask of all the quests that we have ... We live on this beautiful planet, which one day we all say farewell to. What would you like the past to say at the very end of it?

TOYAH: I always say “I came, I lisped, I went” but I think there’s much funnier epitaphs like “no-one gets out of here alive” and or “let me out” (both laugh)

TAYFUN: I’m a celebrity get me out of here!

TOYAH: That’s the one!

TAYFUN: Unfortunately that is all we have time for. Toyah, thank you very much

TOYAH: Thank you! Bye!

TAYFUN: (off camera) Thank you very much for joining us

TOYAH: Thank you, that was good